Q&A, Ask a Football Rules, Situation, Philosophy, or Call Question

[jaihawk]

OK, I've got one that's always bothered me. Why is a false start a dead ball and then the penalty, but offsides on the defense is a free play? Yiud think they would both be automatic dead balls.

 

[Jim14510]

Can you face guard in high school?

 

[alt f4]

Can you face guard in high school?

Yes. Rule changed a few years ago.

 

[jaihawk]

OK, I've got one that's always bothered me. Why is a false start a dead ball and then the penalty, but offsides on the defense is a free play? Yiud think they would both be automatic dead balls.

@alt f4

Would love to hear your thoughts on this one.

 

[alt f4]

OK, I've got one that's always bothered me. Why is a false start a dead ball and then the penalty, but offsides on the defense is a free play? Yiud think they would both be automatic dead balls.

@alt f4

Would love to hear your thoughts on this one.

That would be more like the high school rule where if a defender enters neutral zone it's a dead ball encroachment.

By rule the defense isn't offside until the ball is live. The offense by rule cannot move until ball is snapped once they are set for a full second.

I don't know the exact reason why it's written that way, but I believe it comes down to this hypothetical. Let's say defense is out of timeouts or even to save timeouts, the offense gets into a formation that defense doesn't like or defense is confused, they could simply go offside and create a dead ball offside to get it fixed instead of burning a timeout. Sometimes 5 yard penalties are worth losing a timeout.

 

[lee_carvallo_12]

hey @alt f4 - can you explain holding again to me? i'm still not getting it. plays similar to this seem to happen a lot.

 

[alt f4]

hey @alt f4 - can you explain holding again to me? i'm still not getting it. plays similar to this seem to happen a lot.

I might get long winded on this, but it's the hardest rule for non-officials to understand.

For a hold to be called there are a few philosophies to understand:
1. Did the hold have a material impact on that player's ability to make a play on the ball?
2. Was it at the point of attack?
3. Was there a double team?

#1 and #2 are the big reasons why you don't see a lot of "holds". They might fit the rule and category (below) of a hold, but by philosophy, they're not a hold. A defender must be restricted from making an a play on ball carrier or be prevent in making a play on a QB in pocket. Example of a non-hold by philosophy, defensive tackle getting held per category below, but ball carrier is either running opposite side or towards the outside. In neither was that defensive tackle going to make a play on a faster ball carrier.

Now a pocket QB is extremely hard. You have 3 officials watching the action of typically 5-6 offensive players and 4-5 defensive players. Based on positioning of officials and players obstructing the views, you might get some holds missed because of this. Furthermore, it is a judgement to determine if 1-2 steps were taken away, but defender needed 4 to get to QB before ball was released, then no holding.

The hold must fit in 1 of 6 offensive hold categories (PDF - with pics here: https://kvfoa.org/clinician/kvfoa.org/6 Types of Holds.pdf)
1. Tackle
2. Pull over
3. Hook and restrict
4. Grab and restrict
5. Jerk and restrict
6. Takedown

Some crews/officials/conference 'bank' holdings on pass plays. Meaning they hold the flag to see the result of the play. On marginal holds were there is doubt they hold the flag to see if it was thrown away or completed. This isn't often but does happen and why you might see a late flag thrown.

Here's a quick opinion of the plays
Play 1, right away there was an illegal hands to the face by Ty Robinson. --- basically the first 12 seconds of the clip. That took my eye off any potential hold. Surprised that was missed by the umpire, that's his key and easy view of that action.
Play 1, the action of Nelson, not enough information on this to call a hold. Looks bad from this angle, but we need to see the hand placement of the left hand of offensive #89. That will determine if this is a takedown (view pdf above under takedown for hand placement example). His left hand might not be restrict him at all and the right hand to the shoulder is what pushed Nelson to the ground.

Play 2, nothing I see here that is remotely close to a hold for division 1 or any level college.

Play 3, Nelson isn't held by a hook and restrict until after the ball was thrown. Also, if an offensive team uses 2 players to block one, holding is generally not thrown. Philosophy #1 comes into play here.

 

[herbsinator]

Well, then KF is a retart, because ISU’s center snapped the ball 12 yards over the QB’s head and Cockeyes let the false start negate it.

Embarrassing for you.

 

[lee_carvallo_12]

I might get long winded on this, but it's the hardest rule for non-officials to understand.

For a hold to be called there are a few philosophies to understand:
1. Did the hold have a material impact on that player's ability to make a play on the ball?
2. Was it at the point of attack?
3. Was there a double team?

#1 and #2 are the big reasons why you don't see a lot of "holds". They might fit the rule and category (below) of a hold, but by philosophy, they're not a hold. A defender must be restricted from making an a play on ball carrier or be prevent in making a play on a QB in pocket. Example of a non-hold by philosophy, defensive tackle getting held per category below, but ball carrier is either running opposite side or towards the outside. In neither was that defensive tackle going to make a play on a faster ball carrier.

Now a pocket QB is extremely hard. You have 3 officials watching the action of typically 5-6 offensive players and 4-5 defensive players. Based on positioning of officials and players obstructing the views, you might get some holds missed because of this. Furthermore, it is a judgement to determine if 1-2 steps were taken away, but defender needed 4 to get to QB before ball was released, then no holding.

The hold must fit in 1 of 6 offensive hold categories (PDF - with pics here: https://kvfoa.org/clinician/kvfoa.org/6 Types of Holds.pdf)
1. Tackle
2. Pull over
3. Hook and restrict
4. Grab and restrict
5. Jerk and restrict
6. Takedown

Some crews/officials/conference 'bank' holdings on pass plays. Meaning they hold the flag to see the result of the play. On marginal holds were there is doubt they hold the flag to see if it was thrown away or completed. This isn't often but does happen and why you might see a late flag thrown.

Here's a quick opinion of the plays
Play 1, right away there was an illegal hands to the face by Ty Robinson. --- basically the first 12 seconds of the clip. That took my eye off any potential hold. Surprised that was missed by the umpire, that's his key and easy view of that action.
Play 1, the action of Nelson, not enough information on this to call a hold. Looks bad from this angle, but we need to see the hand placement of the left hand of offensive #89. That will determine if this is a takedown (view pdf above under takedown for hand placement example). His left hand might not be restrict him at all and the right hand to the shoulder is what pushed Nelson to the ground.

Play 2, nothing I see here that is remotely close to a hold for division 1 or any level college.

Play 3, Nelson isn't held by a hook and restrict until after the ball was thrown. Also, if an offensive team uses 2 players to block one, holding is generally not thrown. Philosophy #1 comes into play here.

View attachment 5065

thanks for taking the time to explain. its frustrating as a casual fan to see 1-6 above and the appearance of a ref ignoring it. tough judgement on if a player could make a play on the ball in many cases, but it's clear that the ref is making that distinction as he/she is taking in all the info.

 

[Faux Sean Callahan]

Did the refs make a rule?


How do you judge if a pass is catchable? Do you assume a 20 foot vertical by the WR?

Also from the Twitter verse



I actually am curious how the half the distance deal works. Mainly when you use it vs not.

@alt f4

 

[Faux Sean Callahan]

@alt f4 you ever think about trying to be a B1G ref or would that just be career suicide?

 

[Baron Winnebago]

@alt f4 you ever think about trying to be a B1G ref or would that just be career suicide?

Would he be able to forget enough about the rules of football to perform at that level?

 

[alt f4]

Did the refs make a rule?


How do you judge if a pass is catchable? Do you assume a 20 foot vertical by the WR?

Also from the Twitter verse



I actually am curious how the half the distance deal works. Mainly when you use it vs not.

@alt f4

He doesn't know what the fuck he's saying. Crap like this is what fans read and interpret as the refs suck.

No offensive player can block below the waist more than 5 yards down field. Additionally, if within 5 yards it has to be from the front and between 10 o clock and 2 o clock of the defender's area of concentration. Basically it has to be front the front of where the player is looking. Looked like a good call from what I saw at game and jumbo screen replay.

Next, defensive pass interference is always the full 15 yards from previous spot (if outside the 17 yard line) or spot foul if DPI occurred within 15 yards. It always goes to the 2 if it occurs in endzone and within the 17 yard line or spot foul. They got enforcement correct.

Disconcerning acts is a foul and is not made up. Its when defense mimics the snap, with by saying hut or clapping.

Half the distance is used for every other penalty if within twice distance to goal. Meaning if it's a 15 yard penalty and you're within the 30 it's half the distance. If 5 yard penalty and with 10 it's half distance.

Catchable is basically any pass that doesn't land in the stands and there is a receiver being intefered with in the area of the ball. Additionally a receiver has to be somewhat in the area or at least running towards where ball lands. Got to remember most of these D1 WRs can jump 10+ feet and can make rediculous catches.

 

[...TrueColors...]

He doesn't know what the fuck he's saying. Crap like this is what fans read and interpret as the refs suck.

No offensive player can block below the waist more than 5 yards down field. Additionally, if within 5 yards it has to be from the front and between 10 o clock and 2 o clock of the defender's area of concentration. Basically it has to be front the front of where the player is looking. Looked like a good call from what I saw at game and jumbo screen replay.

Next, defensive pass interference is always the full 15 yards from previous spot (if outside the 17 yard line) or spot foul if DPI occurred within 15 yards. It always goes to the 2 if it occurs in endzone and within the 17 yard line or spot foul. They got enforcement correct.

Disconcerning acts is a foul and is not made up. Its when defense mimics the snap, with by saying hut or clapping.

Half the distance is used for every other penalty if within twice distance to goal. Meaning if it's a 15 yard penalty and you're within the 30 it's half the distance. If 5 yard penalty and with 10 it's half distance.

Catchable is basically any pass that doesn't land in the stands and there is a receiver being intefered with in the area of the ball. Additionally a receiver has to be somewhat in the area or at least running towards where ball lands. Got to remember most of these D1 WRs can jump 10+ feet and can make rediculous catches.

1) I think that we are talking about Cam in reference to the illegal block or whatever. I think he’s got a target on his back right now. He simply can’t give officials a chance to flag him. Especially this crew which if I recall correctly also did the OU game. That penalty really hurt as it negated that run by Falck to their 40 and destroyed our rhythm.

2) With the disconcerning signals call, I believe they got it wrong but I did know it was a penalty. In my opinion, Harbaugh influenced this call.

3) They really fucked up the DPI call. In no other football game I’ve seen is it DPI when a QB appears to be throwing the ball away and an offensive player attempts to run through a defender’s chest.

 

[alt f4]

1) I think that we are talking about Cam in reference to the illegal block or whatever. I think he’s got a target on his back right now. He simply can’t give officials a chance to flag him. Especially this crew which if I recall correctly also did the OU game. That penalty really hurt as it negated that run by Falck to their 40 and destroyed our rhythm.

2) With the disconcerning signals call, I believe they got it wrong but I did know it was a penalty. In my opinion, Harbaugh influenced this call.

3) They really fucked up the DPI call. In no other football game I’ve seen is it DPI when a QB appears to be throwing the ball away and an offensive player attempts to run through a defender’s chest.

You are correct, same crew as OU. And they fucked up a major blindside block in that game as well on OUs first drive. Also, Cam's unnecessary roughness penalties were borderline bad.

 

[...TrueColors...]

You are correct, same crew as OU. And they fucked up a major blindside block in that game as well on OUs first drive. Also, Cam's unnecessary roughness penalties were borderline bad.

I think they got Cam’s first unnecessary roughness call correct. The second one Cam got because he looks like a big bully and it looked bad shoving a little guy slightly after the whistle, in my opinion. Ultimately, Cam simply can’t give them a chance to make those calls anymore because they will.

The blindside block was a bad miss.

 

[UNK’sker]

@alt f4 sorry if you addressed this somewhere else but what’s your take on the ‘joint possession’ call? Have you ever used it or seen it?

 

[Jim14510]

@alt f4 sorry if you addressed this somewhere else but what’s your take on the ‘joint possession’ call? Have you ever used it or seen it?

OK that forward progress


I looked it up they were correct on awarding it to the receiving team. Special rule for scrimmage kicks (punts).

Rule 6-6B

Refs sucks thread addresses this question and more about last night.

 

[alt f4]

@alt f4 sorry if you addressed this somewhere else but what’s your take on the ‘joint possession’ call? Have you ever used it or seen it?

I have never seen it on a punt live in a game or on any training tapes or in any test question. The crew got it right by rule, however they should have cleared the pile faster and seen who recovered.

I have seen joint possession on a pass, even that isn't too often.

 

[alt f4]

@alt f4 you ever think about trying to be a B1G ref or would that just be career suicide?

Believe it or not the BIG is one of the more desirable conferences to officiate in. They've done quite a few playoff and national championship games and have quite a few crews working bowl games. Not just that the BIG is tied into the MAC and Missouri Valley for development. So there are a lot of desirable games in the lower levels too.

But to answer the question, getting to a D1 level is extremely long process and even at that it's who you know at right time. Working Missouri Valley would be great. It's even a little harder now with the politics of the Big. They're really at filling up with women and minorities. The woman who called safety in Illinois had 2 years of high school experience before landing in the Big. That's normally a 12 to 20 year process.