Opinions on the Option

[Pipe Line]

Many consider the flexbone a spread option offense because it has 4 vertical threats. Basically. You can throw 4 verts.

Personally hate the way it looks visually, but love how it functions.

 

[slattimer]

I'm going to try to piece together this response the best I can as I'm not very knowledgeable in X's and O's.

I think what puts Frost in a unique position with this is that he not only was on the team in the 90s, but was the starting QB for 2 years with it, so he does essentially have to know, atleast offensively, Osborne's playbook pretty well to run it. Base plays, audibles, different packages, details, "wrinkles" you name it, the guy had to know it to play at the level he did with that offense. I think that's what qualifies him to teach it, personally. And anything he doesn't remember, spend the winter with Osborne, while he can, to go over everything and maybe go back through some things he may have forgotten. Although if he can really do the things in film study like he said he could do in some interviews, I don't think you really forget that stuff.

Now, also, Frost doesn't have to do all of it. He doesn't have to teach all of it. I like what Greg Austin has done so far so I'd like to keep him around. Hypothetically, maybe Austin joins Frost in meeting with Osborne and going over things that Tom and Milt did back in the day to make that machine run. Unless Austin already knows those concepts, which he very well might from his playing days here.

Only adjustment I would make, is I would find a way to bring in one of the service academy guys that already runs a form of that offense under center, to help with the transition. Unless there's an upgrade somewhere out there in college football?

Frost would be in a unique position because of his experience in the offense, but to say he'd be able to teach it at a serviceable level, I don't know. Coaches grow so much over time, new experiences to different systems, etc. change people and their knowledge of the game. Just because a person played the game doesn't mean they'd be able to teach it very well. It can certainly help. But it's not like Frost has 15+ years in Osborne's system.

The major concepts were IZ/OZ...Austin knows those. If you're wanting something similar to what Osborne ran, then a service academy help would be virtually useless. The difference in those concepts between Osborne and the Service Academy couldn't be more different.

1. I do think it works, honestly I do. My thoughts have changed though in the last few years in that I think you need elite talent at every skill position to make it work the way Frost wants it to work. Which is fine, but we're not at that spot right now. Those kids go to tOSU if they're coming to the Big 10 right now. And based on where we're at in the Frost tenure, I don't think he can buy enough time to play that long haul game anymore in order to convince those high end recruits that tOSU gets and say "here's the progress". So then what's the difference then if being under center doesn't matter? Is it strictly having the athletes and the talent to make that happen? I say yes. As I'm much more of a believer of you need the athletes regardless to make elite things happen, more so than elite coaches. But, that's up for debate.

2. Sorry those were the first 3 that popped in my head at the time. New England also with Cam.

3. So I think I know the answer to this but then why go shotgun 100% of the time if it's basically the same thing? Just to create those confusing pre snap motions and run guys everywhere across the line for confusion? Seems like a waste of time when you're in the red zone. For RPO, are you basically just replacing the RPO with the standard option pitch then? Or vice versa?

4. I honestly agree with that, simply due to his speed and quick decisions. I just think he'd need to pick up a few pounds in order to handle the beating long term. But, Eric Crouch wasn't a huge guy either and he did it just fine.

Teams across the country make the spread work, and don't get elite athletes. You do need to stretch the field horizontally and vertically...just like any offense. Or it's limited.

You can create any presnap shifts, motions, regardless of the offense. I personally think Frost motions too much right now. You motion for a specific set of reasons...to get a coverage clue, to outnumber the defense, create angles, get a dude the ball.

The RPO world is a whole different animal than just saying it replaces the pitch on a standard option. You can literally read anyone on the field from the gun in the RPO game, the SPO Game, the RRO game, the PRO game. It's a whole new level.

 

[Pipe Line]

Frost would be in a unique position because of his experience in the offense, but to say he'd be able to teach it at a serviceable level, I don't know. Coaches grow so much over time, new experiences to different systems, etc. change people and their knowledge of the game. Just because a person played the game doesn't mean they'd be able to teach it very well. It can certainly help. But it's not like Frost has 15+ years in Osborne's system.

The major concepts were IZ/OZ...Austin knows those. If you're wanting something similar to what Osborne ran, then a service academy help would be virtually useless. The difference in those concepts between Osborne and the Service Academy couldn't be more different.




Teams across the country make the spread work, and don't get elite athletes. You do need to stretch the field horizontally and vertically...just like any offense. Or it's limited.

You can create any presnap shifts, motions, regardless of the offense. I personally think Frost motions too much right now. You motion for a specific set of reasons...to get a coverage clue, to outnumber the defense, create angles, get a dude the ball.

The RPO world is a whole different animal than just saying it replaces the pitch on a standard option. You can literally read anyone on the field from the gun in the RPO game, the SPO Game, the RRO game, the PRO game. It's a whole new level.

I don't think I'm smart enough to even adequately respond to this lol I thank you so much for your responses because I'm learning a lot! I guess if I had a question. what do you think an ideal 2020 coaching staff would look like to run Osborne's offense, and have Frost as HC? Does Frost still call the plays? Do you think Chins sticks around for that? I'd like to see Austin stay if you can make that work in your response.

 

[Jim14510]

I

I guess why not do it more and make it part of the offense?

Could definitely be more. Couldn't be a significant part of the offense because then teams spend more time game planning against it and it no longer works.

 

[Pipe Line]

Could definitely be more. Couldn't be a significant part of the offense because then teams spend more time game planning against it and it no longer works.

So there's the point to the discussion. Why wouldn't it work? If teams game plan, just be good enough at executing right?

 

[slattimer]

I don't think I'm smart enough to even adequately respond to this lol I thank you so much for your responses because I'm learning a lot! I guess if I had a question. what do you think an ideal 2020 coaching staff would look like to run Osborne's offense, and have Frost as HC? Does Frost still call the plays? Do you think Chins sticks around for that? I'd like to see Austin stay if you can make that work in your response.

I really have no idea the who's you'd want to run an offense like that. A top flight OL coach that teaches IZ/OZ would be a must. And that person ironically is Bill Callahan.

I like Austin. I think he recruits well, and is a good coach. But so far, his dudes have been underwhelming. I don't know what the issue is.

 

[slattimer]

So there's the point to the discussion. Why wouldn't it work? If teams game plan, just be good enough at executing right?

I really, really despise going taking away practice time for stuff contrary to what is your base offense, especially when you're struggling on offense enough. Just my opinion and from my experiences with practice. That time is valuable. Is the juice worth the squeeze?

 

[Pipe Line]

I really have no idea the who's you'd want to run an offense like that. A top flight OL coach that teaches IZ/OZ would be a must. And that person ironically is Bill Callahan.

I like Austin. I think he recruits well, and is a good coach. But so far, his dudes have been underwhelming. I don't know what the issue is.

Just personal opinion, I think the O-Line's issue is simply a lack of big time, full time experience from guys who will be better than has been there the last 2 years. Cam, Piper, Benhart. Mainly Piper and Benhart. They just need time to used to big boy football and all that it entails. Also need more film study for opposing defenses, things like that. The more you do something, the better you get at it. Honestly, they're just kids too. Their bodies need to mature. They'll be much different maturity wise and 21-22 than they are 19 years old going against grown ass men. I just think they were forced to play before they were ready because they had to be.

 

[Pipe Line]

I really, really despise going taking away practice time for stuff contrary to what is your base offense, especially when you're struggling on offense enough. Just my opinion and from my experiences with practice. That time is valuable. Is the juice worth the squeeze?

I do agree with that. I think one way or the other, stick with it and commit. But what happens when one simply isn't working and you're finishing up your third year?

 

[Jim14510]

So there's the point to the discussion. Why wouldn't it work? If teams game plan, just be good enough at executing right?

How is what you said any different than our current offense? If we were good enough at executing our offense we'd be winning. Nobody would be questioning what offense we run. The issue with going back to our 90s offense is it was too one dimensional. Worked back then because we were significantly better than the teams we played against. Wouldn't have mattered what offense we were running then assuming you had the QB to do it.

 

[Pipe Line]

How is what you said any different than our current offense? If we were good enough at executing our offense we'd be winning. Nobody would be questioning what offense we run. The issue with going back to our 90s offense is it was too one dimensional. Worked back then because we were significantly better than the teams we played against. Wouldn't have mattered what offense we were running then assuming you had the QB to do it.

Well I wish I had a better response than I do. What we're doing is currently struggling, and based on the report from NU fans, I wanted to explore it and get some informed opinions.

 

[...TrueColors...]

Just personal opinion, I think the O-Line's issue is simply a lack of big time, full time experience from guys who will be better than has been there the last 2 years. Cam, Piper, Benhart. Mainly Piper and Benhart. They just need time to used to big boy football and all that it entails. Also need more film study for opposing defenses, things like that. The more you do something, the better you get at it. Honestly, they're just kids too. Their bodies need to mature. They'll be much different maturity wise and 21-22 than they are 19 years old going against grown ass men. I just think they were forced to play before they were ready because they had to be.

There have been 3 guys contribute on the OL that Riley signed out of those 3 years. Of the 15 kids he signed... 3 were big ten players and one of them is Boe Wilson and the other is Matt Farniok. Competition was shit, depth was shit, quality was shit, it was all shit. It’s getting to an acceptable level now, but it’s still a ways from being where want it. Those things have been addressed the past few classes and we’re signing a couple per class now that could play anywhere they want to. We’re also seeing those kids get on the field now and there are sure to be more to come.

 

[...TrueColors...]

Frost would be in a unique position because of his experience in the offense, but to say he'd be able to teach it at a serviceable level, I don't know. Coaches grow so much over time, new experiences to different systems, etc. change people and their knowledge of the game. Just because a person played the game doesn't mean they'd be able to teach it very well. It can certainly help. But it's not like Frost has 15+ years in Osborne's system.

The major concepts were IZ/OZ...Austin knows those. If you're wanting something similar to what Osborne ran, then a service academy help would be virtually useless. The difference in those concepts between Osborne and the Service Academy couldn't be more different.




Teams across the country make the spread work, and don't get elite athletes. You do need to stretch the field horizontally and vertically...just like any offense. Or it's limited.

You can create any presnap shifts, motions, regardless of the offense. I personally think Frost motions too much right now. You motion for a specific set of reasons...to get a coverage clue, to outnumber the defense, create angles, get a dude the ball.

The RPO world is a whole different animal than just saying it replaces the pitch on a standard option. You can literally read anyone on the field from the gun in the RPO game, the SPO Game, the RRO game, the PRO game. It's a whole new level.

To add to your points, Frost has close to 10 more years experience in the system he runs now than he does TO’s.

It’s weird to me that whenever a system “doesn’t work” fans tend to chalk it up to the system being bad. I remember when parents of kids on my high school basketball team would tell you all about how our stupid head coach had to understand that the motion offense just doesn’t work in our conference.

 

[Pipe Line]

There have been 3 guys contribute on the OL that Riley signed out of those 3 years. If the 15 kids he signed... 3 were big ten players and one of them is Boe Wilson and the other is Matt Farniok. Competition was shit, depth was shit, quality was shit, it was all shit. It’s getting to an acceptable level now, but it’s still a ways from being where want it. Those things have been addressed the past few classes and we’re signing a couple per class now that could play anywhere they want to. We’re also seeing those kids get on the field now and there are sure to be more to come.

Always enjoy your takes!

 

[Pipe Line]

To add to your points, Frost has close to 10 more years experience in the system he runs now than he does TO’s.

It’s weird to me that whenever a system “doesn’t work” fans tend to chalk it up to the system being bad. I remember when parents of kids on my high school basketball team would tell you all about how our stupid head coach had to understand that the motion offense just doesn’t work in our conference.

For what it's worth, not saying his system sucks. It's clear it works. I was just asking for opinions based off of the thread in the Platinum Board.

 

[...TrueColors...]

For what it's worth, not saying his system sucks. It's clear it works. I was just asking for opinions based off of the thread in the Platinum Board.

@slattimer is the dude to talk to scheme wise and I look forward to being able to talk to him without him or I having to wade through all of the literal horse shit that always made its way onto RSS.

What Id say is that SF’s system works and it works very well. We just have to commit to it for more than 3 years, allow for there to be steps forward and steps back on our way to what we all want and hope will happen. We simply need players in the worst way. If you look back at what Baylor, TCU, Mizzou (back in the day), and Okie St throw our year over year, they don’t get elite talent at every spot. They’ll have NFL guys, yes. But they never got elite talent all over.

Scott got a 7 year deal, which is pretty unprecedented, right off the bat for a reason. This was a rebuild job and every coach on staff would tell you privately that it was a big one.

 

[slattimer]

To add to your points, Frost has close to 10 more years experience in the system he runs now than he does TO’s.

It’s weird to me that whenever a system “doesn’t work” fans tend to chalk it up to the system being bad. I remember when parents of kids on my high school basketball team would tell you all about how our stupid head coach had to understand that the motion offense just doesn’t work in our conference.

Nature of the beast with fans that yell "hit somebody, block somebody, get'em, you got to want it, play smashmouth, etc."

Most systems and I'd say all systems at the collegiate level are sound and will work. There is a myriad of factors that go into it. I mean, for fuck's sake, Diaco had a stellar defense at Notre Dame, but his last stops he's absolutely sucked.

3 years ago we (as in the team I coach) had one of the most prolific offenses in the state. We had a stud QB, a solid OL, two good RBs, and two really, really good WRs. Even the previous 2 seasons, a lot of success. Fast forward to this year, it was an absolute struggle to try and move the ball. We had no experience on the OL, no experience at QB nor had an arm or much accuracy. We ran much of what we ran the previous 4 seasons. It was rough. We eventually got some things figured out, but it took a lot of ironing out and growth by our guys.

 

[...TrueColors...]

Nature of the beast with fans that yell "hit somebody, block somebody, get'em, you got to want it, play smashmouth, etc."

Most systems and I'd say all systems at the collegiate level are sound and will work. There is a myriad of factors that go into it. I mean, for fuck's sake, Diaco had a stellar defense at Notre Dame, but his last stops he's absolutely sucked.

3 years ago we (as in the team I coach) had one of the most prolific offenses in the state. We had a stud QB, a solid OL, two good RBs, and two really, really good WRs. Even the previous 2 seasons, a lot of success. Fast forward to this year, it was an absolute struggle to try and move the ball. We had no experience on the OL, no experience at QB nor had an arm or much accuracy. We ran much of what we ran the previous 4 seasons. It was rough. We eventually got some things figured out, but it took a lot of ironing out and growth by our guys.

The only time I’ve been coaching and heard someone yell something I 100% agreed with was when my favorite parent yells down at his son and says “Shut your mouth and play harder!!” I laughed really hard because that was potentially the most sound advice I’d ever heard.

Im lucky enough to coach a specific position in soccer and not have to deal with a full team besides as an assistant. In practices, it always appears there is one step forward and two steps back. Coaching, besides being a father and husband is easily the hardest thing I’ve ever attempted in my life and that includes drunken masturbating.

 

[slattimer]

@slattimer is the dude to talk to scheme wise and I look forward to being able to talk to him without him or I having to wade through all of the literal horse shit that always made its way onto RSS.

What Id say is that SF’s system works and it works very well. We just have to commit to it for more than 3 years, allow for there to be steps forward and steps back on our way to what we all want and hope will happen. We simply need players in the worst way. If you look back at what Baylor, TCU, Mizzou (back in the day), and Okie St throw our year over year, they don’t get elite talent at every spot. They’ll have NFL guys, yes. But they never got elite talent all over.

Scott got a 7 year deal, which is pretty unprecedented, right off the bat for a reason. This was a rebuild job and every coach on staff would tell you privately that it was a big one.

Yeah, I become a condescending asshole on tater island. Mainly because I just can't take some of the stupid. Because some of it is so bad, you can't explain any sense to them because of preconceived notions that are completely wrong, or just too stupid to get it if it's spelled out in front of them.

In terms of Frost's offense, IMO, it can and eventually will be a good offense in the B1G. The elements are there to stress defenses. But yeah, it's going to take time. When your OL is sub-par, which after the OSU game I was fully on board thinking okay, the OL/DL looks to be better. Now, It's head scratcher as why they've regressed so much after looking like they did vs OSU. But when your OL is like that, it sucks and doesn't matter what you run.

I am biased towards Frost's Offense. I like the concepts, I know the concepts pretty IMO. And when you've got dudes to run it, it's good shit. Personal Opinion, 4 verts is the best play in football. It has every answer in the book on how to beat coverages with the adjustments within it. Hell, 4 verts is damn near a system in itself, especially with the variety that Frost has. 3 verts is another, and realistically, it's the exact same as 4 verts without a numbers vert. They have mesh and drive in their repertoire. Their run game is pretty diverse, mixing in gap and zone running game, and there are RPOs built in to damn near every run, and they can read damn near every defender on the field. They've ran your typical EMOL reads, they've ran midline reads, box LBs reads, apex LB reads, and 3rd level $ reads. That's a ton of fucking shit to do. And maybe be an indicator on why they're struggling some.

I can't remember which game it was, wasn't Ohio State, probably NW, but We ran a shit ton of the stick concept with a backside concept. I'm pretty much a huge proponent of D. Gonzalez in the passing game, and he has a principle called RAM - which is "Read Away from Mike" and is usually paired with stick. If the Mike goes to the Stick, read the backside combo, Mike doesn't go to the Stick concept. There was at least 3 instances Wan'Dale was the backside #2 slanting to the Mike window. Mike went to the Stick, and he was wide open. Never went to him once. Given, I have no idea how they teach their progression, but that's how it works in my brain.

With Martinez they run a lot more 3 and 4 verts too, I think I saw 4 verts once w/ McCaff and he damn near threw a pick vs PSU & missed Wan'Dale breaking open on the hash.

I always enjoy talking football, hell I'm always trying to learn more. I'm way better than I was when I first started 16 years ago, but I still have a ton to learn.

 

[Pipe Line]

@slattimer is the dude to talk to scheme wise and I look forward to being able to talk to him without him or I having to wade through all of the literal horse shit that always made its way onto RSS.

What Id say is that SF’s system works and it works very well. We just have to commit to it for more than 3 years, allow for there to be steps forward and steps back on our way to what we all want and hope will happen. We simply need players in the worst way. If you look back at what Baylor, TCU, Mizzou (back in the day), and Okie St throw our year over year, they don’t get elite talent at every spot. They’ll have NFL guys, yes. But they never got elite talent all over.

Scott got a 7 year deal, which is pretty unprecedented, right off the bat for a reason. This was a rebuild job and every coach on staff would tell you privately that it was a big one.

I'm really glad I'm on this board for this exact reason, I can ask much smarter people than me legit questions and get legit opinions without bullshit from other posters who I don't care to read from.

I think Moos's recent interview about Frost was spot on in continued support in the long run. I'm not an X's and O's guy. I'm a weight room and Husker Power guy. I know for a fact that they are better in that sense and that's a big enough deal as it is. Once that part is taken care of, getting there, it's just getting the schemes down and knowing what you're supposed to be doing at all times. I know that takes time.