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Live look out of @tman87 front door...maybe

LOL, not in Montana. Think 80' tall evergreens and mountainside. And lots of snow. Been winter weather here for over two weeks now.

Truly is mind numbing living 5 minutes outside of town they don't have wired internet where my land/house is though. There are 20 lots in this mountain subdivision, each lot about 20 acres. Our main road is the old railroad bed, which has been defunct for 40, 50 years or more as being used. They just don't want to invest the $ to run wired internet 5 minutes outside of town is all.
 
LOL, not in Montana. Think 80' tall evergreens and mountainside. And lots of snow. Been winter weather here for over two weeks now.

Truly is mind numbing living 5 minutes outside of town they don't have wired internet where my land/house is though. There are 20 lots in this mountain subdivision, each lot about 20 acres. Our main road is the old railroad bed, which has been defunct for 40, 50 years or more as being used. They just don't want to invest the $ to run wired internet 5 minutes outside of town is all.
20 acre lots...holy shit, I'm in!! whats a lot go for?
 
Where I live here in Montana - about 5 miles outside of town so not too far - they don't have wired internet at my place. Almost 2023 and no fucking wired internet. So I have to go with wireless internet. Been about 1.5 years now on T Mobile home internet (wireless), which is a LOT faster than the 1 to 2 mb speed of the old wireless I had here for many years (it was literally the only option available before T Mobile wireless home internet). T Mobile home internet has been slow for me here for many months now - frustrating. I mean I feel good when my speedtest shows 7 mbs download. It used to hit 25 and up to 75 mbs DL, T Mobile says they don't throttle, but I think they are full of shit. Strangely, upload (which is usually slower than DL on most internet services) hits 30 to 40 mbs, so it's not the 5G connection to the T Mobile router I don't think.

Anywho, yes, I have noticed a lot of slowness on TPB lately. Thought it may just be my internet, but I have had this site actually pop up a "website unavailable" page several times the last few days. Any other sites were loading normally, so maybe it was just your cheap godaddy Garrett (I am joking).

It does seem faster tonight FWIW, so maybe the upgrade did help.
starlink?

parents and brothers family got it at the farm.. way better than the previous wireless net
 
starlink?

parents and brothers family got it at the farm.. way better than the previous wireless net
I could get starlink now. I know a couple people who have it, say it is fast but glitchy and very pricey. Would almost be worth it to have faster internet though. I pay $50 a month for TMobile, no data caps. Starlink is supposedly $110 a month now, at least $600 minimum for up front hardware fees. I should probably look into it again. It was more expensive that $110 a month a year and a half ago.

Good idea to jolt my memory on checking back into it.
 
LOL, not in Montana. Think 80' tall evergreens and mountainside. And lots of snow. Been winter weather here for over two weeks now.

Truly is mind numbing living 5 minutes outside of town they don't have wired internet where my land/house is though. There are 20 lots in this mountain subdivision, each lot about 20 acres. Our main road is the old railroad bed, which has been defunct for 40, 50 years or more as being used. They just don't want to invest the $ to run wired internet 5 minutes outside of town is all.

How much initiative are you personally willing to take? This is one example out of dozens of internet/VoIP cooperatives that have been created over the past decade:


Personally, I wouldn't have the energy, money, legal prowess, or time to do such a thing. At the same time, the folks that started cooperative ISPs in eastern SD and Western MN have ended up making out like bandits, all while paying all of their subscribers dividends most years.
 
How much initiative are you personally willing to take? This is one example out of dozens of internet/VoIP cooperatives that have been created over the past decade:


Personally, I wouldn't have the energy, money, legal prowess, or time to do such a thing. At the same time, the folks that started cooperative ISPs in eastern SD and Western MN have ended up making out like bandits, all while paying all of their subscribers dividends most years.
Thanks for the link to the story. Interesting stuff. I would have no idea how to do that, but it is great some have the ability to build out higher speed wired internet in rural areas.

I love my house, which I built myself starting back in 2003. As a builder, I was able to build it myself for about 40% of what it would have cost were I not a builder, so there is equity in this house. I originally built it to stay long term, i.e. I overbuilt. Too many sq feet (although it has been a full house for about 2 years now - 10 of us living here since 2 years ago - too long of a story to get into why/how). But I think I will end up selling and moving sooner than later. Lots of reasons behind that. Mostly, I don't want to live in this town/area any longer for multiple reasons. It is an utter shithole of a town/community, and I do not like the societal makeup here. Also a very bass ackwards town economically.

Too boot, this is one of the coldest towns in America. Probably get down to zero tonight, negative 15 or colder tomorrow night. May not get above low teens for highs. In fucking early November. Now imagine what the dog days of winter are like here. Weeks barely getting above zero, can happen more often than not for months on end. It is brutal. I have been pushing through working outside in these bitter cold temps for years, but not sure I want to do that much longer. I think I will be selling and moving to better, nicer town/area and definitely a nicer climate. I love the mountains, but 8+ months of winter is the shits. No wonder this is one of, if not the drunkest town in America.

With all of that said - I don't think I would want to invest the time, money and effort to building out a fiber internet ISP here, for all the reasons stated above. 8 months of bitter cold winter can fuck off, lol.
 
Thanks for the link to the story. Interesting stuff. I would have no idea how to do that, but it is great some have the ability to build out higher speed wired internet in rural areas.

I love my house, which I built myself starting back in 2003. As a builder, I was able to build it myself for about 40% of what it would have cost were I not a builder, so there is equity in this house. I originally built it to stay long term, i.e. I overbuilt. Too many sq feet (although it has been a full house for about 2 years now - 10 of us living here since 2 years ago - too long of a story to get into why/how). But I think I will end up selling and moving sooner than later. Lots of reasons behind that. Mostly, I don't want to live in this town/area any longer for multiple reasons. It is an utter shithole of a town/community, and I do not like the societal makeup here. Also a very bass ackwards town economically.

Too boot, this is one of the coldest towns in America. Probably get down to zero tonight, negative 15 or colder tomorrow night. May not get above low teens for highs. In fucking early November. Now imagine what the dog days of winter are like here. Weeks barely getting above zero, can happen more often than not for months on end. It is brutal. I have been pushing through working outside in these bitter cold temps for years, but not sure I want to do that much longer. I think I will be selling and moving to better, nicer town/area and definitely a nicer climate. I love the mountains, but 8+ months of winter is the shits. No wonder this is one of, if not the drunkest town in America.

With all of that said - I don't think I would want to invest the time, money and effort to building out a fiber internet ISP here, for all the reasons stated above. 8 months of bitter cold winter can fuck off, lol.
Which town? I've always loved the idea of a Montana mounting cabin (spelling intentional as I intend to drag Mrs. LHR into the woods and drill, baby, drill).
 
Which town? I've always loved the idea of a Montana mounting cabin (spelling intentional as I intend to drag Mrs. LHR into the woods and drill, baby, drill).

My name for the town is Butt, MT. The asshole of the state. Literally one of the most toxic places in the country, with what used to be the largest copper mine in the country, maybe the world. The old pit copper mine is a blight on the whole area. Just ugly, and many a murdered person has been dumped into the very, very deep uber toxic mine "waters" over the years. Supposedly the entire body is gone, like an acid bath.

But the mining here has literally made this a toxic waste dump. There are a few old money families here who control most everything and have kept the rest of the town down. And convinced the people here to buy into their bullshit on how/why they do this. It is a corrupt town, top to bottom. City/county administration, police, you name it, it is corrupt. So many here live in housing that is beyond pathetic, and have been trained to be "proud" of the "history" of this old shithole. What the reality is, there is so much unbelievably horrible, run down housing here and people think it is some kind of badge of honor to live in white trash shitholes. They go in debt for expensive trucks and campers, but live in houses that have tarps over the roof the condition is so bad.

Super high cancer rates here from the toxicity of all the mining. That is never going away in our lifetimes, it is what mining like this does to an area. Mining is a very hard job, which leads to people living hard also. Drinking and drug problems are rampant here, and at one point, if not still, this town had more bars per capita than anywhere in the country. People are bass ackwards here, true little man syndrome where they convince themselves how great they are, while turning a bling eye to the horrible societal makeup of hard drinking, hard living, and backwards thinking of living in what is basically poverty from all of this. Just a toxic place in all ways.

My ex wife was from here, which is why I moved here back in 2001 when I decided to make a change, get out of my thriving home building business in Lincoln, NE and move to the mountains. I have relatives in Colorado, Vail to be exact, so grew up going there to ski/visit and the mountains have always called to me. I bought 4 franchised small retails stores in the state in 2001 and moved out here. Ran those, but was still also a contractor picking up jobs part time. All that while building my own house. Very busy.

Once we moved here, which I was warned by my ex wife (we were married then), if I really knew what I was getting into moving to Butte, MT, things went to shit quickly. I scoffed at her, said I grew up on a large hog farm in northeast NE, I am sure I can handle Butte. Boy was I wrong. She went totally off the rails as soon as we moved here. Got in with her old friend group, which consisted of hard party people, and things spiraled quicly with our marriage. We were never a good fit anyway, but her being back to her hard party stomping grounds was the end.

I do love the mountains, try to ski a lot (the closest ski hill, about an hour away, has super cheap year passes), so I try to take advantage of things like that here. White water rafting is also a favorite of mine, and have rafted most of the rivers in the state. I have explored all over the mountains of the state, and during the couple of decent weather months of July and August, that is really fun.

I don't hunt, but if I did this would be a dream location. We have so many elk on our land it is crazy. Moose, bear of course deer (whitetail and muleuy) are in abundance. Have seen wolves, a brief glimpse of a mountain lion twice, bobcats - you name it, they are here. Fly fishing has always appealed to me, hell one of the reasons Montana was high on my list is from the movie A River Runs Through It. But like all movies or shows based on Montana, it is not reality. Take the show Yellowstone for example. Talk about not even close to any semblance of reality of Montana. I don't fly fish much anymore, but do love it. Hell, 99% of the fish I catch in a year are on my parents private lake in northeast NE - talk about a lunker almost every cast. And I fly fish 99% of the time on their lake, too. There is something about fly fishing that is so much more elegant than rod and reel.

But the very long winters have been wearing on me. I don't want to suffer through the much longer. They are brutal. Plus this town, which is economically horrible, offers almost no opportunity (there usually aren't ever even any new subdivisions to go buy a lot to build a spec house here for instance) for being a builder. Instead, I end up working a lot on old shithole houses, most of which in this town are literally 5 feet apart as that is how close they built to each other for much of the 20th century, working on broken down old shit that many should just be bulldozed in, not money sunk into them. The city/county government has actively prevented expansion of new housing (I had to pull teeth to buy my 20 acres and build on it), and does not allow new box store businesses in because the old money here does not want progress, they see it as a threat to their old money businesses. Thus, people here have to travel out of town to Helena, Bozeman, Missoula for any real shopping that isn't Walmart. But people here bitch up a storm about those towns and any out of stater that has moved here. They don't want progress, they want to stick their heads in the dirt and fingers in their ears and block out anything that isn't ingrained "them". I've never seen a more insecure bunch of people than this town has.

So I don't plan on being here much longer. Unfortunately, that means not seeing my 22 and 23 yr old daughers much. They both need to get out of here too, but the toxicity and ingrained insecurity of daring to move somewhere else is wired deep into them from this backwards community. Which makes it a hard decision to make a major life change for me which will mean not seeing them regularly. But that is where I think I am heading on all of this, likely sooner than later.
 
My name for the town is Butt, MT. The asshole of the state. Literally one of the most toxic places in the country, with what used to be the largest copper mine in the country, maybe the world. The old pit copper mine is a blight on the whole area. Just ugly, and many a murdered person has been dumped into the very, very deep uber toxic mine "waters" over the years. Supposedly the entire body is gone, like an acid bath.

But the mining here has literally made this a toxic waste dump. There are a few old money families here who control most everything and have kept the rest of the town down. And convinced the people here to buy into their bullshit on how/why they do this. It is a corrupt town, top to bottom. City/county administration, police, you name it, it is corrupt. So many here live in housing that is beyond pathetic, and have been trained to be "proud" of the "history" of this old shithole. What the reality is, there is so much unbelievably horrible, run down housing here and people think it is some kind of badge of honor to live in white trash shitholes. They go in debt for expensive trucks and campers, but live in houses that have tarps over the roof the condition is so bad.

Super high cancer rates here from the toxicity of all the mining. That is never going away in our lifetimes, it is what mining like this does to an area. Mining is a very hard job, which leads to people living hard also. Drinking and drug problems are rampant here, and at one point, if not still, this town had more bars per capita than anywhere in the country. People are bass ackwards here, true little man syndrome where they convince themselves how great they are, while turning a bling eye to the horrible societal makeup of hard drinking, hard living, and backwards thinking of living in what is basically poverty from all of this. Just a toxic place in all ways.

My ex wife was from here, which is why I moved here back in 2001 when I decided to make a change, get out of my thriving home building business in Lincoln, NE and move to the mountains. I have relatives in Colorado, Vail to be exact, so grew up going there to ski/visit and the mountains have always called to me. I bought 4 franchised small retails stores in the state in 2001 and moved out here. Ran those, but was still also a contractor picking up jobs part time. All that while building my own house. Very busy.

Once we moved here, which I was warned by my ex wife (we were married then), if I really knew what I was getting into moving to Butte, MT, things went to shit quickly. I scoffed at her, said I grew up on a large hog farm in northeast NE, I am sure I can handle Butte. Boy was I wrong. She went totally off the rails as soon as we moved here. Got in with her old friend group, which consisted of hard party people, and things spiraled quicly with our marriage. We were never a good fit anyway, but her being back to her hard party stomping grounds was the end.

I do love the mountains, try to ski a lot (the closest ski hill, about an hour away, has super cheap year passes), so I try to take advantage of things like that here. White water rafting is also a favorite of mine, and have rafted most of the rivers in the state. I have explored all over the mountains of the state, and during the couple of decent weather months of July and August, that is really fun.

I don't hunt, but if I did this would be a dream location. We have so many elk on our land it is crazy. Moose, bear of course deer (whitetail and muleuy) are in abundance. Have seen wolves, a brief glimpse of a mountain lion twice, bobcats - you name it, they are here. Fly fishing has always appealed to me, hell one of the reasons Montana was high on my list is from the movie A River Runs Through It. But like all movies or shows based on Montana, it is not reality. Take the show Yellowstone for example. Talk about not even close to any semblance of reality of Montana. I don't fly fish much anymore, but do love it. Hell, 99% of the fish I catch in a year are on my parents private lake in northeast NE - talk about a lunker almost every cast. And I fly fish 99% of the time on their lake, too. There is something about fly fishing that is so much more elegant than rod and reel.

But the very long winters have been wearing on me. I don't want to suffer through the much longer. They are brutal. Plus this town, which is economically horrible, offers almost no opportunity (there usually aren't ever even any new subdivisions to go buy a lot to build a spec house here for instance) for being a builder. Instead, I end up working a lot on old shithole houses, most of which in this town are literally 5 feet apart as that is how close they built to each other for much of the 20th century, working on broken down old shit that many should just be bulldozed in, not money sunk into them. The city/county government has actively prevented expansion of new housing (I had to pull teeth to buy my 20 acres and build on it), and does not allow new box store businesses in because the old money here does not want progress, they see it as a threat to their old money businesses. Thus, people here have to travel out of town to Helena, Bozeman, Missoula for any real shopping that isn't Walmart. But people here bitch up a storm about those towns and any out of stater that has moved here. They don't want progress, they want to stick their heads in the dirt and fingers in their ears and block out anything that isn't ingrained "them". I've never seen a more insecure bunch of people than this town has.

So I don't plan on being here much longer. Unfortunately, that means not seeing my 22 and 23 yr old daughers much. They both need to get out of here too, but the toxicity and ingrained insecurity of daring to move somewhere else is wired deep into them from this backwards community. Which makes it a hard decision to make a major life change for me which will mean not seeing them regularly. But that is where I think I am heading on all of this, likely sooner than later.
Christ man. You sound miserable.

I've only been to Montana once and it was to Yellowstone so have this image in my head of Montana being one of the most interesting/beautiful places in the world.

Where does that end and your reality begin?
 
Christ man. You sound miserable.

I've only been to Montana once and it was to Yellowstone so have this image in my head of Montana being one of the most interesting/beautiful places in the world.

Where does that end and your reality begin?

Yellowstone is the most popular national park in the country, for a reason. It's great. But also mostly in Wyoming.

There is beautiful scenery here. You have Glacier which is a wonder of it's own. And there's plenty of beautiful stuff in between the two parks. The eastern 60% of the state is mostly wide open plains. There is some beautiful stuff in some of that too though, although I would never want to live anywhere in that part of the state.

The state overall, is over rated though IMHO. I'd rather be in CO, NM, UT, NV, Oregon, hell Nothern Cali. All of those places offer at the very least as much, and most of the more, beautiful terrain, and pretty much all of them much better overall weather.

It is not for no reason that most movies said to be set in MT were not actually filmed in MT. Even Yellowstone for the first couple of seasons was barely shot in MT. The Dutton Ranch house is right off the hwy SSW of Missoula. The true beautiful mountain vistas in most movies shot in MT (and sometimes WY too) are often shot in Canada. Movie magic makes it easy to fool people into some dream version of what a place must be like. People have things in their heads from movies and TV shows mostly what they think things are. Not just MT of course, this is the case pretty much with any movie/TV show shot in a location - easy to romanticize what a place is when it is not realistically shown.

But the main issue is the town/area I made the mistake of moving to. It is a dumpster fire of a place. No real positives here, tons of negatives. I could never live in the town of Butte itself, such a titanic shithole. Luckily I bought mountainside land covered in trees, you can't even see my house. So very private. Qtr mile winding drive through thick trees to the house, so nothing obvious there is a house up a qtr mile of the drive. I would have been long gone had I not built this house in a private, secluded area/lot. If you drove around Butte, MT, you would be shocked at the amount of utter shitholes of houses that are actually being lived in. Sure, there are some better areas of town, but to make a comparison, drive through most small towns in Nebraska, and people have kept up and updated most if not all of the houses in these towns. Drive around Norfolk and the disparity when compared to Butt, MT is striking. People here live in poverty level shitholes that you really won't find much of, if any, in Norfolk or most smaller NE towns. This kind of thing mirrors the type of people who live in Butte - they don't give a shit.

The end game is I sell my house, which I should have done a year or two ago when the market was hot and the interest rates still historically low. Covid was gonna take a big hit on the economy, and we are reaping that pain now. So not the best time to sell right now, even though housing values are still high enough.

But before I would sell, I need to have an exit plan. I am not even sure where I would move to. Nebraska would be the easiest transition for a few years, as my parents are near retirement age, but dad wants to do one more subdivision and build out the houses on that. My brother has been working with my dad for many years helping build, as dad is not physically capable of doing that much anymore. But my brother is probably leaving NE, soon, so I could come back and have several years to build up a better moving fund and take the time to choose my permanent destination.

But who knows, I have been thinking about this for many years. At some point I will act on that. Would probably only come back to visit MT if my daughters are still here.
 
My name for the town is Butt, MT. The asshole of the state. Literally one of the most toxic places in the country, with what used to be the largest copper mine in the country, maybe the world. The old pit copper mine is a blight on the whole area. Just ugly, and many a murdered person has been dumped into the very, very deep uber toxic mine "waters" over the years. Supposedly the entire body is gone, like an acid bath.

But the mining here has literally made this a toxic waste dump. There are a few old money families here who control most everything and have kept the rest of the town down. And convinced the people here to buy into their bullshit on how/why they do this. It is a corrupt town, top to bottom. City/county administration, police, you name it, it is corrupt. So many here live in housing that is beyond pathetic, and have been trained to be "proud" of the "history" of this old shithole. What the reality is, there is so much unbelievably horrible, run down housing here and people think it is some kind of badge of honor to live in white trash shitholes. They go in debt for expensive trucks and campers, but live in houses that have tarps over the roof the condition is so bad.

Super high cancer rates here from the toxicity of all the mining. That is never going away in our lifetimes, it is what mining like this does to an area. Mining is a very hard job, which leads to people living hard also. Drinking and drug problems are rampant here, and at one point, if not still, this town had more bars per capita than anywhere in the country. People are bass ackwards here, true little man syndrome where they convince themselves how great they are, while turning a bling eye to the horrible societal makeup of hard drinking, hard living, and backwards thinking of living in what is basically poverty from all of this. Just a toxic place in all ways.

My ex wife was from here, which is why I moved here back in 2001 when I decided to make a change, get out of my thriving home building business in Lincoln, NE and move to the mountains. I have relatives in Colorado, Vail to be exact, so grew up going there to ski/visit and the mountains have always called to me. I bought 4 franchised small retails stores in the state in 2001 and moved out here. Ran those, but was still also a contractor picking up jobs part time. All that while building my own house. Very busy.

Once we moved here, which I was warned by my ex wife (we were married then), if I really knew what I was getting into moving to Butte, MT, things went to shit quickly. I scoffed at her, said I grew up on a large hog farm in northeast NE, I am sure I can handle Butte. Boy was I wrong. She went totally off the rails as soon as we moved here. Got in with her old friend group, which consisted of hard party people, and things spiraled quicly with our marriage. We were never a good fit anyway, but her being back to her hard party stomping grounds was the end.

I do love the mountains, try to ski a lot (the closest ski hill, about an hour away, has super cheap year passes), so I try to take advantage of things like that here. White water rafting is also a favorite of mine, and have rafted most of the rivers in the state. I have explored all over the mountains of the state, and during the couple of decent weather months of July and August, that is really fun.

I don't hunt, but if I did this would be a dream location. We have so many elk on our land it is crazy. Moose, bear of course deer (whitetail and muleuy) are in abundance. Have seen wolves, a brief glimpse of a mountain lion twice, bobcats - you name it, they are here. Fly fishing has always appealed to me, hell one of the reasons Montana was high on my list is from the movie A River Runs Through It. But like all movies or shows based on Montana, it is not reality. Take the show Yellowstone for example. Talk about not even close to any semblance of reality of Montana. I don't fly fish much anymore, but do love it. Hell, 99% of the fish I catch in a year are on my parents private lake in northeast NE - talk about a lunker almost every cast. And I fly fish 99% of the time on their lake, too. There is something about fly fishing that is so much more elegant than rod and reel.

But the very long winters have been wearing on me. I don't want to suffer through the much longer. They are brutal. Plus this town, which is economically horrible, offers almost no opportunity (there usually aren't ever even any new subdivisions to go buy a lot to build a spec house here for instance) for being a builder. Instead, I end up working a lot on old shithole houses, most of which in this town are literally 5 feet apart as that is how close they built to each other for much of the 20th century, working on broken down old shit that many should just be bulldozed in, not money sunk into them. The city/county government has actively prevented expansion of new housing (I had to pull teeth to buy my 20 acres and build on it), and does not allow new box store businesses in because the old money here does not want progress, they see it as a threat to their old money businesses. Thus, people here have to travel out of town to Helena, Bozeman, Missoula for any real shopping that isn't Walmart. But people here bitch up a storm about those towns and any out of stater that has moved here. They don't want progress, they want to stick their heads in the dirt and fingers in their ears and block out anything that isn't ingrained "them". I've never seen a more insecure bunch of people than this town has.

So I don't plan on being here much longer. Unfortunately, that means not seeing my 22 and 23 yr old daughers much. They both need to get out of here too, but the toxicity and ingrained insecurity of daring to move somewhere else is wired deep into them from this backwards community. Which makes it a hard decision to make a major life change for me which will mean not seeing them regularly. But that is where I think I am heading on all of this, likely sooner than later.
Went through there on our way to Glacier a few years ago. One of the many "features" of traveling with the lovely and talented Mrs. LHR is that she plays "trip advisor" and reads me all the lore about the locales we're traveling through. The history of Butte is pretty interesting, but you're right - an impoverished shell remains. Just driving through town trying to grab a bite of fast food was depressing.

My wife's cousin is a Montana State Trooper up in Helena, and she loves it there. She does NOT have anything good to say about Butte, but the scenery on the way out of town headed up towards Helena and the east side of Glacier was beautiful. I see the attraction regarding those mountains and wanting to live in and near them, hence my attraction to the Westcliffe, CO area - those Sangre de Christo mountains are literally calling to my soul. I WILL own dirt there in the next few years - I've flat out promised myself that.

I hope you and your family figure out your next step. It's hard to leave a business behind, but those skills map elsewhere, and life's too short to live someplace you don't want to be. I'll be pulling for ya, amigo.
 
I've enjoyed Big Sky the 2x I went. Glacier is hella beautiful.

@tman87 you might look into Teton Valley in Idaho. That is somewhere I want to go. Remote enough, good amenities. Alta ski area.

Can pop over the pass to Jackson for a night out, anything outdoors or the airport that flies to about anywhere in the United States.
 
Went through there on our way to Glacier a few years ago. One of the many "features" of traveling with the lovely and talented Mrs. LHR is that she plays "trip advisor" and reads me all the lore about the locales we're traveling through. The history of Butte is pretty interesting, but you're right - an impoverished shell remains. Just driving through town trying to grab a bite of fast food was depressing.

My wife's cousin is a Montana State Trooper up in Helena, and she loves it there. She does NOT have anything good to say about Butte, but the scenery on the way out of town headed up towards Helena and the east side of Glacier was beautiful. I see the attraction regarding those mountains and wanting to live in and near them, hence my attraction to the Westcliffe, CO area - those Sangre de Christo mountains are literally calling to my soul. I WILL own dirt there in the next few years - I've flat out promised myself that.

I hope you and your family figure out your next step. It's hard to leave a business behind, but those skills map elsewhere, and life's too short to live someplace you don't want to be. I'll be pulling for ya, amigo.

First of all, thanks for the post. Glacier is amazing, I wanted to move up to the Flat Head for quite a while (flat head lake outside of glacier park area - Kalispell and Whitefish) as one of my retail businesses was in the Flat Head - actually two retail businesses there for a while, one in Whitefish, then the other in Kalispell. I basically lived up there for many months as I didn't have a store manager for a while, so much of the time slept in the back of the store while I worked it 7 days a week for weeks on end until I could find someone worth hiring as a manager.

Butte is not like any other "major" (by major, I mean more than 25K people) town in the state. Every other town that size or bigger despises Butte, and for good reason. Helena, Missoula, Bozeman are all night and day different and better in every way, it's simply not a comparison. I don't personally like Great Falls or Billings, neither are in the mountains (although close enough to and both still have beautiful terrain close by) and both are just drab to me. But Butte is it's own story.

Butte is romanticized for it's "history", which is extremely over rated. If you like a few corrupt millionaire copper mine barons who ran the town (and state for the most part back then), then I guess you'd like the history. If you like a town where the mafia has strong roots, you'd like the history. Some of the mafia hitters who helped start Vegas are connected to the Butte area.

Now is Butte a mafia town now? Not really. But for example, a little before 2010, if you didn't use the teamsters local union honk companies, they would come after you with baseball bats or worse. For instance, a local who owned a restaurtant and wanted to simply build a (now mandatory) smoke shack out back for his employees, tried to build it himself. Had all the legal permits, etc. It was his property. A bunch of teamsters came over with bats and other weapons and told him if they didn't hire their people (at an exorbinant price per hour, oh, and they only "work" about 3 hours out of a charged 8 hour day), that he would get beat to hell and his restaurant burned down. He ended up hiring it out to them at an exorbinant price. Not only was this a well know story here, but the restaurant owner was a customer at my retail business and told me the story in person.

Another example. An out of town doctor, who had been working in Butte for over 5 years, was building a new house. After going through hell to get the city/county to approve the permits, etc, he ended up hiring some contractors from Helena because the Butte companies wanted to charge up the ass compared to the out of town crews and also take 3 times as long to do the same work. Since he went with out of town crews, his house was burnt to the ground. He got out of town and moved. These are just two recent examples of how this town operates. The good old boy network here is deep into everything. That is starting to let up some, as builders from out of town now do come here to work, but overall, none of them really want to.

When I was looking for land to buy (and I mean there is a lot of land outside of town - it's a huge state), I went to the city/county building and asked to look at plot maps of land parcels I had found to see who owned them, etc. Two times in a row, the guy working in that office told me "we don't let people do that here, we don't like it and don't want new houses built around here". I knew he couldn't legally keep me from seeing the plot maps, and the third time I went in an called him out on it. He begrudingly finally let me look. But not without saying "I bet you aren't even from Butte, or Montana, are you. We don't want peope like you here". Fuck off, dude.

I am always "accused" of being from Cali by people here. Damn, I grew up on a large hog farm in northeast NE, it doesn't get much less "Cali" than that. It is amazing the inbred attitude that has held this town and area down. They have been conditioned to be afraid of anything and anyone not from here, true little mans syndrome. The few big money families in town keep out almost all competition for anything, which in turn keeps progress to the area at a standstill.

I could go on with stories like this. It is a constant theme here. They value much of the worst attributes in people and care little for good attributes in people. It is bass ackwards, crazytown shit. It is like a badge of honor to be a fucking loser here. If you ever visit this shithole, go to the "Party Palace" bar in uptown Butte. It is hard to explain the "people watching" you can do there - it is extraordinalry astounding to go in to that place and see what this town is.

Stick to CO my friend. I originally wanted to, and tried to, buy these same retail businesses in CO, but the price of not only those stores (had to buy them from corporate), but also the housing was off the charts high. Since my wife at the time was from Butte, and I had visited here many times before moving here, the cost of living here and the cost that corporate was asking for stores in MT vs CO, it was simply not feasible to move to CO. So Montana it was.

I am getting old enough that I need to make a move sooner than later. The impetus of time now plays a factor for me for sure. As it does anyone as time rolls on. If I end up staying here, I only have myself to blame.
 
First of all, thanks for the post. Glacier is amazing, I wanted to move up to the Flat Head for quite a while (flat head lake outside of glacier park area - Kalispell and Whitefish) as one of my retail businesses was in the Flat Head - actually two retail businesses there for a while, one in Whitefish, then the other in Kalispell. I basically lived up there for many months as I didn't have a store manager for a while, so much of the time slept in the back of the store while I worked it 7 days a week for weeks on end until I could find someone worth hiring as a manager.

Butte is not like any other "major" (by major, I mean more than 25K people) town in the state. Every other town that size or bigger despises Butte, and for good reason. Helena, Missoula, Bozeman are all night and day different and better in every way, it's simply not a comparison. I don't personally like Great Falls or Billings, neither are in the mountains (although close enough to and both still have beautiful terrain close by) and both are just drab to me. But Butte is it's own story.

Butte is romanticized for it's "history", which is extremely over rated. If you like a few corrupt millionaire copper mine barons who ran the town (and state for the most part back then), then I guess you'd like the history. If you like a town where the mafia has strong roots, you'd like the history. Some of the mafia hitters who helped start Vegas are connected to the Butte area.

Now is Butte a mafia town now? Not really. But for example, a little before 2010, if you didn't use the teamsters local union honk companies, they would come after you with baseball bats or worse. For instance, a local who owned a restaurtant and wanted to simply build a (now mandatory) smoke shack out back for his employees, tried to build it himself. Had all the legal permits, etc. It was his property. A bunch of teamsters came over with bats and other weapons and told him if they didn't hire their people (at an exorbinant price per hour, oh, and they only "work" about 3 hours out of a charged 8 hour day), that he would get beat to hell and his restaurant burned down. He ended up hiring it out to them at an exorbinant price. Not only was this a well know story here, but the restaurant owner was a customer at my retail business and told me the story in person.

Another example. An out of town doctor, who had been working in Butte for over 5 years, was building a new house. After going through hell to get the city/county to approve the permits, etc, he ended up hiring some contractors from Helena because the Butte companies wanted to charge up the ass compared to the out of town crews and also take 3 times as long to do the same work. Since he went with out of town crews, his house was burnt to the ground. He got out of town and moved. These are just two recent examples of how this town operates. The good old boy network here is deep into everything. That is starting to let up some, as builders from out of town now do come here to work, but overall, none of them really want to.

When I was looking for land to buy (and I mean there is a lot of land outside of town - it's a huge state), I went to the city/county building and asked to look at plot maps of land parcels I had found to see who owned them, etc. Two times in a row, the guy working in that office told me "we don't let people do that here, we don't like it and don't want new houses built around here". I knew he couldn't legally keep me from seeing the plot maps, and the third time I went in an called him out on it. He begrudingly finally let me look. But not without saying "I bet you aren't even from Butte, or Montana, are you. We don't want peope like you here". Fuck off, dude.

I am always "accused" of being from Cali by people here. Damn, I grew up on a large hog farm in northeast NE, it doesn't get much less "Cali" than that. It is amazing the inbred attitude that has held this town and area down. They have been conditioned to be afraid of anything and anyone not from here, true little mans syndrome. The few big money families in town keep out almost all competition for anything, which in turn keeps progress to the area at a standstill.

I could go on with stories like this. It is a constant theme here. They value much of the worst attributes in people and care little for good attributes in people. It is bass ackwards, crazytown shit. It is like a badge of honor to be a fucking loser here. If you ever visit this shithole, go to the "Party Palace" bar in uptown Butte. It is hard to explain the "people watching" you can do there - it is extraordinalry astounding to go in to that place and see what this town is.

Stick to CO my friend. I originally wanted to, and tried to, buy these same retail businesses in CO, but the price of not only those stores (had to buy them from corporate), but also the housing was off the charts high. Since my wife at the time was from Butte, and I had visited here many times before moving here, the cost of living here and the cost that corporate was asking for stores in MT vs CO, it was simply not feasible to move to CO. So Montana it was.

I am getting old enough that I need to make a move sooner than later. The impetus of time now plays a factor for me for sure. As it does anyone as time rolls on. If I end up staying here, I only have myself to blame.
Jesus Christ that place sounds like absolute hell. I thought I had run into some good ol boy networks in a few places but they pale in comparison to what you describe. Sorry you have to deal with all of that crap dude.
 
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