I’m still N on Rhule, but..

[biscuitgaze01]

this is a misconception at this point. He does a lot of pre snap dissection but the defense knows how to bait him which is why he’s always cocking the ball and then realizing that read isn’t open. This is more to blame on the sacks than the OL.

Here’s what we’re dealing with…

- An edge rusher who is focused on the pass rush will almost always beat the OT. If he’s given enough time.
- DR isn’t a running threat to keep the ends honest.
- We don’t try to establish the run to keep the ends honest.
- The defense disguises/baits DR into a certain look, giving the ends time to get to QB
- The OL is giving him 3 seconds.
- The OL is not able to give him 4 seconds.
- He needs 4 seconds given how much time he spends on his first read and then find his second read.
- DR is a bit paralyzed by the disguised looks.

There is no reason we couldn’t run mesh and sticks like Minny did to us last night to keep the chains moving but DR is staying with the wrong read too often and too long. Even when we run those, he rarely opens with EJ as read 1 which is how those plays are designed.

We ran mesh 4 times last night early in the game and Minnesota clamped it with zone defenders sitting on important landmarks. Maryland did it as well.

I promise you we’re running all curls, stick, mesh, etc multiple times in every game. Minnesota elected to defend it differently then we did to them that’s why the results were different.

 

[BorWhiskey]

We ran mesh 4 times last night early in the game and Minnesota clamped it with zone defenders sitting on important landmarks. Maryland did it as well.

I promise you we’re running all curls, stick, mesh, etc multiple times in every game. Minnesota elected to defend it differently then we did to them that’s why the results were different.

Fair enough. I know I don’t have the motivation to go back and map the game and reads out so I’ll believe you over my recollection when watching it live.

 

[biscuitgaze01]

Fair enough. I know I don’t have the motivation to go back and map the game and reads out so I’ll believe you over my recollection when watching it live.

The big throw down field to Lindenmeyer on 3rd down was mesh. It was completely clamped on the outset which required a scramble + play out of structure.

0:30 of this video you can see it.

 

[V-Doub]

But we ARE consistently getting 3 seconds. Is not “3 or less”, it’s “at least 3”. He got 3.35 seconds last night. Over 3.5 without a blitz, and just barely under 3 when they did blitz… and you’d expect that.

These aren’t abnormal pass pro TTT’s… but they are abnormal results because of other circumstances.

Again, it’s not as easy as this OL sucks.

But I’ve never made it that simple. I just believe the majority of the blame goes on the oline. And just as many times as I’ve said that, I’ve also said Dylan is holding the ball too long (almost start every rant with that) and/or we aren’t calling the type plays necessary to slow down pass rush.

Yes, somehow getting DR to pull the trigger on time, provided his 1st or 2nd option is open, and Holgs is calling fairly quick developing plays (I think he mostly is) then that will solve some problems. But if we’re gonna be a playoff team the O-LINE is a WAY bigger problem than DR.

Watch Ohio St, Texas Tech, Miami (until last night lol) USC, Indiana, Oregon and others… Julian Sayin never has a damn defensive player near him. And he gets the ball out in 3 or less a lot, but nobody is near him or in his face and he has 5+ seconds on every pass play if he needs it. 3 seconds with 2 or 3 dudes on your ass and in your face isn’t the same as 3 seconds with nobody with in 10 feet of you. Those are both exactly 3 seconds but 2 totally different situations. That’s why I hate the “3 second standard” delineation. It’s a statistical point emphasis that doesn’t account for the logistical realities on the field.

 

[V-Doub]

The big throw down field to Lindenmeyer on 3rd down was mesh. It was completely clamped on the outset which required a scramble + play out of structure.

0:30 of this video you can see it.

Yup, clearly a mesh concept that didn’t come open. But the oline gave him the time (combine with DR’s best effort to move around) to find something out of concept.

 

[BorWhiskey]

The big throw down field to Lindenmeyer on 3rd down was mesh. It was completely clamped on the outset which required a scramble + play out of structure.

0:30 of this video you can see it.

I didn’t mean to indicate we never ran it.

He has key on that play and I’m not sure why he went to back side so quickly. The defenders in are their heels or back pedaling and you lead the WR. Also a first down without any of the scrambling.

Defense looked to be in cover 3 with inside leverage. DR reads Barney in the flat, Key, then backside to Hunter and LL who were taking up about the same space. I’d agree with his pre snap read on the play, disagree with his distrust to deliver the ball to Key. Not to under appreciate the difficulty of that throw, but he can make it. He has the arm strength needed to get the ball out fast enough so the curl zone can’t break it up or pick it off, and far enough so the hook can’t keep up with it.

Anyway, he made the play in the end.

 

[V-Doub]

I didn’t mean to indicate we never ran it.

He has key on that play and I’m not sure why he went to back side so quickly. The defenders in are their heels or back pedaling and you lead the WR. Also a first down without any of the scrambling.

Defense looked to be in cover 3 with inside leverage. DR reads Barney in the flat, Key, then backside to Hunter and LL who were taking up about the same space. I’d agree with his pre snap read on the play, disagree with his distrust to deliver the ball to Key. Not to under appreciate the difficulty of that throw, but he can make it. He has the arm strength needed to get the ball out fast enough so the curl zone can’t break it up or pick it off, and far enough so the hook can’t keep up with it.

Anyway, he made the play in the end.

He had more than 3 seconds.

 

[Sous Chef]

Ok, I’ll just say it. Rhule needs fire Donnie and if Dylan transfers so be it. I think most of us don’t want Dylan to transfer, but I also don’t think he’s good enough to justify keeping Donnie.

DR is like a lot like some of Saban’s QBs at Alabama. Especially the 1st half of Saban’s tenure at Alabama. Those were not m0bile guys, but they were smart and had elite arm talent. You need an elite oline with that type of QB, and our oline is far from elite.

If he could hit a fade or for that matter almost any pass over 20 yards down field I'd maybe be buying in to that "elite arm talent" thing a lot more.

 

[Hardknocks1]

We are and have been way closer to the Rutgers and bottom of the B10 since joining than we are the top. We are a bottom third program not close to the top 3rd. Until we become above average to very good up front on both sides that will never change.

 

[V-Doub]

If he could hit a fade or for that matter almost any pass over 20 yards down field I'd maybe be buying in to that "elite arm talent" thing a lot more.

He seems to be “looping” (for lack of better term) his fades and deep balls which make them very inaccurate. But he also hit some of those early in the season when he had a clean pocket. And they didn’t look so “loopy”… I think he’s like a lot of pocket passers. He sucks when you get pressure on him, and sometimes just getting close to them (pocket passers) is enough once they get shaken/rattled.

 

[MaxHuskers34]

Still N on Rhule. I think he’s an outstanding culture fit and a good coach.

Having said that, we have some glaring flaws (duh). It starts with the Raiola family. It appears there are some really big holes in Dylan’s game. He may have generational arm talent. He may be really good pre-snap. But something isn’t right. He does hold the ball too long. I don’t care what anyone tries to tell me at this point. He holds it too long. I understand that our OL is trash, but he’s gotta get the ball out sooner. Idk if Dana needs to give him more stuff where it’s one down field read and if it’s not there check it down, or what. He needs some easier reads and we need more quick game passing. Get the ball out and let’s go. If we can’t do that within our scheme, it seriously might be time to try something else at QB. Dylan is an enigma because he makes some incredible plays but then other times he just stands there for five seconds and takes a sack.

The other Raiola… well, unc isn’t exactly helping neph. I really have no idea here. You literally have rushers running by our OL untouched. Multiple times. Is it scheme? Are we just dumb? I seriously don’t get how we can be this bad on the OL. We have to get rid of Donny and try something else.

We also ran the ball well at times tonight and then got away from it. Would like to have seen us commit to the run more when the game was still in doubt.

Defense I’m not too concerned about. Obviously the 98 yard drive was killer. But 6 points through 2+ quarters up to that point when the game was still in the balance isn’t good enough. You have to do more to help your defense out.

I know none of this is earth shattering. But I still think Rhule is a superb fit here and can win here at a high level. But we have to make some changes.

Raiola is still 10x better than any other QB we’ve had since Joe Ganz.

That said I still agree with everything else you said.

 

[jickey moseph]

this is a misconception at this point. He does a lot of pre snap dissection but the defense knows how to bait him which is why he’s always cocking the ball and then realizing that read isn’t open. This is more to blame on the sacks than the OL.

Here’s what we’re dealing with…

- An edge rusher who is focused on the pass rush will almost always beat the OT. If he’s given enough time.
- DR isn’t a running threat to keep the ends honest.
- We don’t try to establish the run to keep the ends honest.
- The defense disguises/baits DR into a certain look, giving the ends time to get to QB
- The OL is giving him 3 seconds.
- The OL is not able to give him 4 seconds.
- He needs 4 seconds given how much time he spends on his first read and then find his second read.
- DR is a bit paralyzed by the disguised looks.

There is no reason we couldn’t run mesh and sticks like Minny did to us last night to keep the chains moving but DR is staying with the wrong read too often and too long. Even when we run those, he rarely opens with EJ as read 1 which is how those plays are designed.

Can someone smarter than me tell me why we haven’t seen one draw play this year with any back?

 

[V-Doub]

Raiola is still 10x better than any other QB we’ve had since Joe Ganz.

That said I still agree with everything else you said.

I mean, look what he did early in the season when he had a clean pocket against inferior opponents. Dylan needs to be better with the condensed pockets he’s getting the B1G. But we’ve already seen what he can do with an ”uncondensed” pocket.

And yes, I just invented the word uncondensed.

 

[MaxHuskers34]

I mean, look what he did early in the season when he had a clean pocket against inferior opponents. Dylan needs to be better with the condensed pockets he’s getting the B1G. But we’ve already seen what he can do with an ”uncondensed” pocket.

And yes, I just invented the word uncondensed.

I agree. I think a lot of comes down to playcalling and understanding your limits. Right now the Oline limits what the offense can do when it comes to route concepts. Dylan doesn’t have time for his receivers to run long developing routes/plays.

He’s been most effective when operating the RPO/Quick game. When he has 2 reads he gets the ball out fast. When he’s given 5 reads, it feels like he’s been coached to go through all of them and then decide to throw.

The most puzzling thing to me what the lack of WR screens yesterday. Hunter gets one tunnel screen when the game is over and takes it for 14 yards. Why did it take so long to call our most effective play?

 

[biscuitgaze01]

I didn’t mean to indicate we never ran it.

He has key on that play and I’m not sure why he went to back side so quickly. The defenders in are their heels or back pedaling and you lead the WR. Also a first down without any of the scrambling.

Defense looked to be in cover 3 with inside leverage. DR reads Barney in the flat, Key, then backside to Hunter and LL who were taking up about the same space. I’d agree with his pre snap read on the play, disagree with his distrust to deliver the ball to Key. Not to under appreciate the difficulty of that throw, but he can make it. He has the arm strength needed to get the ball out fast enough so the curl zone can’t break it up or pick it off, and far enough so the hook can’t keep up with it.

Anyway, he made the play in the end.

This is an honest attempt but I don’t agree with anything you said here. He’s looking to deliver the ball to the wheel first then the play side crosser for an opportunity to run after catch for first down. None of the progression was open. Key is definitely not open.

 

[Sous Chef]

I agree. I think a lot of comes down to playcalling and understanding your limits. Right now the Oline limits what the offense can do when it comes to route concepts. Dylan doesn’t have time for his receivers to run long developing routes/plays.

He’s been most effective when operating the RPO/Quick game. When he has 2 reads he gets the ball out fast. When he’s given 5 reads, it feels like he’s been coached to go through all of them and then decide to throw.

The most puzzling thing to me what the lack of WR screens yesterday. Hunter gets one tunnel screen when the game is over and takes it for 14 yards. Why did it take so long to call our most effective play?

It seems to me that we just plain over estimated our own team and vastly under estimated MU's defense. If we'd had the same game plan from snap 1 that we did vs Maryland I suspect things would be different. How as a supposed elite play caller you go from EJ dragging his nut sack all over Maryland and MSU to putting the guy on a milk carton boggles the mind. Maybe they thought that having a run game was too obvious to work. I only wish that was more sarcastic than it really is.

 

[BorWhiskey]

This is an honest attempt but I don’t agree with anything you said here. He’s looking to deliver the ball to the wheel first then the play side crosser for an opportunity to run after catch for first down. None of the progression was open. Key is definitely not open.

Well, you aren’t disagreeing with much of what I said.

The only thing you said that was in disagreement was that you don’t think Key would break free from the hook defender. I see a hook on his heels and a good WR crossing his face. He is by definition open if you lead the ball like you are supposed to.

You are saying Barney’s route was a wheel (which it was) but I called it a flat, as that was where he was when DR came off that route. We both said that was read #1.

I think we both said Key was his second read. If you think it’s Hunter then that’s not what I’m seeing. He clearly is looking at the outside hook defender and it scared him.

 

[V-Doub]

I don’t understand what we are trying to do on offense.

I think, that Holgs and crew think/know we can’t consistently run block well enough to win that way. And we also have no QB run game. So I they think we can control games with our short passing game. Problem is the first 2 options aren’t coming open quick enough or consistently enough which turns your short passing game into making play out of concept. And our oline doesn’t block well enough to provide the extra time needed to make out of concept plays.

On top of that DR is getting rattled and just not making great decisions. Now, sometimes the 1st/2nd option is open, but holds ball because he’s become unsure of himself. Lastly, trying to control the game with short quick passes is very difficult if the opposing defense doesn’t respect your run game or your ability to stretch the field deep. We actually tried to stretch the field several times last night, but every single time DR had someone right in his face and he missed the throw, also got sacked on a couple too.

Minnesota didn’t respect our ability to stretch the field and it was there for the taking. If we connect on 2 or 3 of those deep balls that game looks totally different.

In the end I just keep coming back to the same damn thing… We don’t block well enough to run the ball consistently. We also don’t block well enough to throw downfield consistently. So teams are just clamping down on the short routes and coming after Raiola. Seems like whatever we want to do is hampered by the oline to some degree.

But that’s just my drawn out opinion from what I’m seeing. I’m sure someone will let me know if they think I’m totally off base. 🤣

 

[PlumbingCarrot]

Idk think we just cut losses with rhule now and go get lane

 

[V-Doub]

I agree. I think a lot of comes down to playcalling and understanding your limits. Right now the Oline limits what the offense can do when it comes to route concepts. Dylan doesn’t have time for his receivers to run long developing routes/plays.

He’s been most effective when operating the RPO/Quick game. When he has 2 reads he gets the ball out fast. When he’s given 5 reads, it feels like he’s been coached to go through all of them and then decide to throw.

The most puzzling thing to me what the lack of WR screens yesterday. Hunter gets one tunnel screen when the game is over and takes it for 14 yards. Why did it take so long to call our most effective play?

Found that puzzling as well. In the end, the oline doesn’t allow us to run the ball consistently. They don’t allow us to throw downfield consistently. All we have left is the quick passing game and Minnesota clamped down on that cause they didn’t respect our ability to beat them any other way.

And it could’ve came back to bite them. We had some deep routes open and we couldn’t connect. DR is gonna have to find a way to hit a couple of those deep routes with a defender in his face. Cause if Minnesota can do it, a statistically average to below average team rushing the passer. Everyone is gonna come after him. One way or another we never made them back off defensively.