Why did we let/push Tony White out?

[Sous Chef]

I’m not sure if you are hinting at a point with your question or asking it honestly. IIRC, you have the TW perspective and are frustrated on his behalf for how things went down.

But I’ll answer with what I believe. Last year’s team was better suited to pass rush with four. This team isn’t.

That said, our blitzes resulted in only 4 hurries and 1 sack. Regardless of blitz rate, it’s not giving us the results we want.

I'm actually more concerned about the macro decisions and the underlying motives for some of those decisions by our head coach than I am frustrated on Tony's behalf. Based on what I know yes I do think Tony had good reason to feel slighted, confused, pissed off and betrayed. Was he a paragon of all things sweetness and light? No. Could he have handled things better? Probably but that's with hindsight being 20/20. Tony himself is going to be just fine with the rest of his life. I'm more concerned about the chain of events that led one of the premier college DC's to no longer be here and getting replaced by a first time DC. Who not coincidentally is probably more open to being a sock puppet since it is his first gig as a DC. Imagine being Tony White in 2023. You and your staff have turned one of the worst defenses the previous year into a very good unit in less than a year. You watch the offense sputter, the special teams Keystone Kops all over the field and yet you are the one your boss wants to micro manage. Yah he was offended. To say the least.

 

[BorWhiskey]

I'm actually more concerned about the macro decisions and the underlying motives for some of those decisions by our head coach than I am frustrated on Tony's behalf. Based on what I know yes I do think Tony had good reason to feel slighted, confused, pissed off and betrayed. Was he a paragon of all things sweetness and light? No. Could he have handled things better? Probably but that's with hindsight being 20/20. Tony himself is going to be just fine with the rest of his life. I'm more concerned about the chain of events that led one of the premier college DC's to no longer be here and getting replaced by a first time DC. Who not coincidentally is probably more open to being a sock puppet since it is his first gig as a DC. Imagine being Tony White in 2023. You and your staff have turned one of the worst defenses the previous year into a very good unit in less than a year. You watch the offense sputter, the special teams Keystone Kops all over the field and yet you are the one your boss wants to micro manage. Yah he was offended. To say the least.

what I read here was just further justification that TW was no longer viable for us. That he became a virus that was dividing the team.

And micro managing is excessive for what it was. If you make suggestions to your employee and they tell you “no, tell Barry to fix their shit”, you’ve just called an air strike on yourself. He was fighting team culture which just made things worse for him. It became a battle.

 

[NSECTA4]

what I read here was just further justification that TW was no longer viable for us. That he became a virus that was dividing the team.

And micro managing is excessive for what it was. If you make suggestions to your employee and they tell you “no, tell Barry to fix their shit”, you’ve just called an air strike on yourself. He was fighting team culture which just made things worse for him. It became a battle.

Ouch.

 

[Sous Chef]

what I read here was just further justification that TW was no longer viable for us. That he became a virus that was dividing the team.

And micro managing is excessive for what it was. If you make suggestions to your employee and they tell you “no, tell Barry to fix their shit”, you’ve just called an air strike on yourself. He was fighting team culture which just made things worse for him. It became a battle.

Ok fair enough. Like I said I don't necessarily think Tony helped the situation any more than Rhule did. It was a bad marriage for sure. But to suggest that being told you have to turn your 3-3-5 multiple attacking defense into a rush four cover with 7 every down defense is not a reason to be dismissive of your boss's vision then I guess we have to agree to disagree. I knew it was a bad idea when it first got talked about prior to spring ball 2024. There is no getting around the fact that Rhule didn't give Tony the same latitude and freedom of decision that he did for Satterfield and Foley. Of the three initial coordinator hires I know who my money is on to have the better career going forward.

And as far as Tony becoming a cancer its true...but only after he realized he was in a no win situation. Like I said he didn't handle getting bent over like Jesus would have.

 

[KidsSeeGhosts]

I'm curious as to what ever happened to "only rushing the passer with four just like they do it in the NFL" We don't ever hear about that anymore do we?

I think that people were confused on what was meant by NFL defense. That’s more happening in coverage. We don’t have the personnel to reliably stop 7, but it we actually did make plays doing just that yesterday FWIW

 

[Sous Chef]

I think that people were confused on what was meant by NFL defense. That’s more happening in coverage. We don’t have the personnel to reliably stop 7, but it we actually did make plays doing just that yesterday FWIW

I think people forget exactly what got said prior to winter conditioning 2024. Rhule wanted to implement that as the defense. But the issue for Tony was that he was assured in the strongest terms when he accepted the job that he would be in charge of the defense. The job he did was fantastic no way around that either. So it isn't like he wasn't getting the job done. Rhule wanted to fix what wasn't broken. I realize we all are supposed to pretend that our HC walks on water and is perfect and doesn't ever give in to baser emotions. But that isn't reality.

 

[herbsinator]

I think people forget exactly what got said prior to winter conditioning 2024. Rhule wanted to implement that as the defense. But the issue for Tony was that he was assured in the strongest terms when he accepted the job that he would be in charge of the defense. The job he did was fantastic no way around that either. So it isn't like he wasn't getting the job done. Rhule wanted to fix what wasn't broken. I realize we all are supposed to pretend that our HC walks on water and is perfect and doesn't ever give in to baser emotions. But that isn't reality.

Are we going to pretend that there weren’t certain deficiencies with the TW defense, specifically around defending the pass?

 

[Sous Chef]

Are we going to pretend that there weren’t certain deficiencies with the TW defense, specifically around defending the pass?

Of course there were. 3rd downs were suspect a lot of the time. But given the horrendous offense and beyond ridiculously bad ST's we had that year fixing the defense by changing the core philosophy of the defense probably shouldn't have been the top concern. Foley kept his job way too long. Ditto Satterfield. Is there any doubt about that at this point?

 

[herbsinator]

Of course there were. 3rd downs were suspect a lot of the time. But given the horrendous offense and beyond ridiculously bad ST's we had that year fixing the defense by changing the core philosophy of the defense probably shouldn't have been the top concern. Foley kept his job way to long. Ditto Satterfield. Is there any doubt about that at this point?

Rhule was trying to bring Dana in at the start of last year, so it’s incorrect to say he wasn’t focused on that either. Foley is what it is, I guess.

I think Rhule has been chasing whole sale improvement across the board.

 

[Sous Chef]

Rhule was trying to bring Dana in at the start of last year, so it’s incorrect to say he wasn’t focused on that either. Foley is what it is, I guess.

I think Rhule has been chasing whole sale improvement across the board.

We will know soon enough if Butler is an improvement. I like a lot of what I've seen and given the extreme youth on the defense I'm willing to give him plenty of slack and time. But at some point we need to win games. Yesterday we had some really shoddy tackling, run fits and angles by our veteran secondary. Supposedly Butler's coaching strength. Jimmies and Joes.

 

[BorWhiskey]

This conversation reminds me of some leadership book I read sometime in the past. Wish I could quote the author but don’t remember it. They drew a chart with an X and a Y. On the X was “Alignment” and on the Y was “Competence”. They stated that obviously the ideal is to be top of competence and to the far right of alignment. But looking at these two separately, if you have someone with low competence but high alignment you can do something with that. You can supplement them with training or role adjustment. Etc. If you have someone that is the most competent but lacks any alignment, you’ve got to get rid of them because they will adversely impact everything else. Doesn’t mean they are bad, they just aren’t a fit.

TW felt lied to I suppose. Rhule felt like he was battling a subculture that conflicted with team culture. And high level strategy decisions, not the implementation of those strategies, are the decision of the HC. Right or wrong. He takes the blame for the results regardless. And when he makes a decision he needs buy-in from his deputies. TW’s response to strategy decisions, plus his established subculture gave us the scenario above. TW was highly competent but misaligned.

 

[Sous Chef]

This conversation reminds me of some leadership book I read sometime in the past. Wish I could quote the author but don’t remember it. They drew a chart with an X and a Y. On the X was “Alignment” and on the Y was “Competence”. They stated that obviously the ideal is to be top of competence and to the far right of alignment. But looking at these two separately, if you have someone with low competence but high alignment you can do something with that. You can supplement them with training or role adjustment. Etc. If you have someone that is the most competent but lacks any alignment, you’ve got to get rid of them because they will adversely impact everything else. Doesn’t mean they are bad, they just aren’t a fit.

TW felt lied to I suppose. Rhule felt like he was battling a subculture that conflicted with team culture. And high level strategy decisions, not the implementation of those strategies, are the decision of the HC. Right or wrong. He takes the blame for the results regardless. And when he makes a decision he needs buy-in from his deputies. TW’s response to strategy decisions, plus his established subculture gave us the scenario above. TW was highly competent but misaligned.

I agree with this. Fair assessment of what actually happened I would say.

 

[COYS]

If there was a monumental mistake that is directly on the shoulders of Rhule, it was not going out and getting a big time defensive tackle in the transfer portal. We went bargain shopping for that position and now it is going to tank our season or at least limit what we can do defensively. This is only going to get worse as we get further into Big Ten play against the Cockeye and Minnesota’s who will just pound the rock on us. It was no secret, even the fans knew that there was going to be a huge issue in the interior defensive line, yet, we did nothing to address that in the off-season.

I get those guys don’t grow on trees and they are hard to find, but it should’ve been priority number one in the portal and the majority of our NIL budget should have been going to somebody in that position. It was a fatal mistake in terms of roster management.

 

[BorWhiskey]

If there was a monumental mistake that is directly on the shoulders of Rhule, it was not going out and getting a big time defensive tackle in the transfer portal. We went bargain shopping for that position and now it is going to tank our season or at least limit what we can do defensively. This is only going to get worse as we get further into Big Ten play against the Cockeye and Minnesota’s who will just pound the rock on us. It was no secret, even the fans knew that there was going to be a huge issue in the interior defensive line, yet, we did nothing to address that in the off-season.

I get those guys don’t grow on trees and they are hard to find, but it should’ve been priority number one in the portal and the majority of our NIL budget should have been going to somebody in that position. It was a fatal mistake in terms of roster management.

I challenge you to look at the portal options and find that big time DT that would suffice the need. I know we contacted Stone from OU when he was in the portal and were putting together a serious package. Then he withdrew from the portal. I’m not familiar with other options.

 

[KidsSeeGhosts]

I think people forget exactly what got said prior to winter conditioning 2024. Rhule wanted to implement that as the defense. But the issue for Tony was that he was assured in the strongest terms when he accepted the job that he would be in charge of the defense. The job he did was fantastic no way around that either. So it isn't like he wasn't getting the job done. Rhule wanted to fix what wasn't broken. I realize we all are supposed to pretend that our HC walks on water and is perfect and doesn't ever give in to baser emotions. But that isn't reality.

We played majority 4 man stuff last year and really didn’t blitz that much relatively and compared with 2023. The DL we had in 2024 could often execute that, but less so against Big 10 competition. That becomes an issue when White’s coverage tendencies are predictable and get diced up.

2024 Illinois. 21-27 passing for 8.0 YPP. 7/13 third down efficiency.

2024 Indiana. 24-30 passing for 9.3 YPP. 5/9 third down efficiency. Don’t forget 215 on the ground.

2024 Ohio State. 13-16 passing for 13.8 YPP. 1-10 on third down though.

2024 UCLA. Stunted on by Garbers. 17-25 passing for 8.8 YPP. 6/13 third down efficiency.

USC. 25-35 passing for 7.4 YPP. 6/13 third down efficiency. Tough with 5.7 YPP rushing.

Wisconsin. Worst Sconnie team we’ve played in recent memory. 20/30 passing for 9.7 YPP. 3/10 third down though.

Agree you have go give TW his kudos. It’s tough to be a good DC these days. At same time, realistic about his shortcomings and failings. Certainly seems like the split was mutual.

 

[Sous Chef]

We played majority 4 man stuff last year and really didn’t blitz that much relatively and compared with 2023. The DL we had in 2024 could often execute that, but less so against Big 10 competition. That becomes an issue when White’s coverage tendencies are predictable and get diced up.

2024 Illinois. 21-27 passing for 8.0 YPP. 7/13 third down efficiency.

2024 Indiana. 24-30 passing for 9.3 YPP. 5/9 third down efficiency. Don’t forget 215 on the ground.

2024 Ohio State. 13-16 passing for 13.8 YPP. 1-10 on third down though.

2024 UCLA. Stunted on by Garbers. 17-25 passing for 8.8 YPP. 6/13 third down efficiency.

USC. 25-35 passing for 7.4 YPP. 6/13 third down efficiency. Tough with 5.7 YPP rushing.

Wisconsin. Worst Sconnie team we’ve played in recent memory. 20/30 passing for 9.7 YPP. 3/10 third down though.

Agree you have go give TW his kudos. It’s tough to be a good DC these days. At same time, realistic about his shortcomings and failings. Certainly seems like the split was mutual.

Its also difficult when the QB doesn't need to worry about where the pressures are coming from and the four rushers aren't getting home.