Teenagers being little fuckers…

[2010sarenevercomingback]

Should we home school them too?

Probably.

 

[HCFord1]

Probably.

🤣

Why?

 

[Alcaus]

Probably.

We've thought about homeschooling especially if my wife moves to stay at home.

I think the way school is setup is really unnatural. Wake kids up at 6:30AM to jump on a bus, sit in a building for 8+ hours a day, get home at 3:30PM. Very little, if any, time spent outdoors. Just seems like a lot of time spent sitting around when the actual schooling can be done in a few hours a day and the rest of the time they can do things they actually enjoy.

Not sure how team sports work with something like that though and I think that's important.

 

[2010sarenevercomingback]

We've thought about homeschooling especially if my wife moves to stay at home.

I think the way school is setup is really unnatural. Wake kids up at 6:30AM to jump on a bus, sit in a building for 8+ hours a day, get home at 3:30PM. Very little, if any, time spent outdoors. Just seems like a lot of time spent sitting around when the actual schooling can be done in a few hours a day and the rest of the time they can do things they actually enjoy.

Not sure how team sports work with something like that though and I think that's important.

In most places, your kids can still join the sports teams of your district school, even if they're homeschooled (there was a somewhat recent D1 basketball recruit from Nebraska who I believe did this). Depending on your location, there are also often homeschool groups that field teams in different sports (usually play against private schools or other homeschool teams).

 

[2010sarenevercomingback]

🤣

Why?

Better results both in & out of the classroom, for most kids.

 

[HCFord1]

Better results both in & out of the classroom, for most kids.

Do you plan on elaborating on any of this? Or are you used to people just accepting these statements at face value?

 

[2010sarenevercomingback]

Do you plan on elaborating on any of this? Or are you used to people just accepting these statements at face value?

It's all public information if you look for it - usually I save most of my effort for people who are legitimately interested, rather than the ones posting laughing emojis & looking to start a fight... but here's a graphic that gives a few of the details I was referencing & a bunch of citations at the bottom.

 

[HCFord1]

It's all public information if you look for it - usually I save most of my effort for people who are legitimately interested, rather than the ones posting laughing emojis & looking to start a fight... but here's a graphic that gives a few of the details I was referencing & a bunch of citations at the bottom.

View attachment 19030

Seems like you're coming at this from a religious angle, which is completely fine. Everyone has the right to educate their children however they see fit, including whether they'd like religion to play a central role in that.

However, essentially every data point in this entire infographic is either irrelevant to the point you're trying to make (that home schooled kids perform better according to most metrics in and out of school), or is simply an observable correlation which is more meaningfully influenced by other, primarily socioeconomic, variables. Further, some of the data is flat out misrepresented or is 25 years old at this point and has been subsequently contradicted by more recent studies (e.g. Harvard study in 2010 showed that public school kids are more likely to go to college, 2014 analysis of ACT scores shows that home schooled kids outperform public school but get outperformed by private school, etc.).

The real driver behind the good outcomes that can be observed in home schooled children is that they have typically well-educated, engaged parents who participate in their education. They have parents who hold them accountable to succeed in their schooling, which is a fundamental head start over a large portion of the children in public schools. If you could drop the same family dynamics into the household of every public school student, you'd be amazed by the shift in test scores, grades, etc.

All this means is that being an involved parent is important, and that effect carries over to public and private school kids also. There aren't a lot of shitty parents out there who suddenly decide that they want to invest time in home schooling their kids, but there are a ton of them who allow their kids to flounder through public schools until they're legally able to drop out without ever having a meaningful conversation about education. What you're left with is selection bias for this type of empirical comparison. You want to get closer to showing causation? Control for all of the socioeconomic advantages that home schooled kids have over a great deal of public school students. You'll find that schools do well teaching kids who are ready to learn, especially in science and math.

Anyway, I don't have anything against people who want to home school their kids or have a parent stay home with them instead of sending them to daycare; that's a choice every family can make for itself. What bugs me is when people act like their way of doing things is obviously superior and use propoganda to disseminate their ill-founded dogmas. There are plenty of observable advantages to both daycare and regular schooling but that doesn't mean that home school isn't right for certain families, just as the success of some home schooled kids doesn't mean that all kids would be better off being taught at home.

 

[2010sarenevercomingback]

Seems like you're coming at this from a religious angle, which is completely fine. Everyone has the right to educate their children however they see fit, including whether they'd like religion to play a central role in that.

However, essentially every data point in this entire infographic is either irrelevant to the point you're trying to make (that home schooled kids perform better according to most metrics in and out of school), or is simply an observable correlation which is more meaningfully influenced by other, primarily socioeconomic, variables. Further, some of the data is flat out misrepresented or is 25 years old at this point and has been subsequently contradicted by more recent studies (e.g. Harvard study in 2010 showed that public school kids are more likely to go to college, 2014 analysis of ACT scores shows that home schooled kids outperform public school but get outperformed by private school, etc.).

The real driver behind the good outcomes that can be observed in home schooled children is that they have typically well-educated, engaged parents who participate in their education. They have parents who hold them accountable to succeed in their schooling, which is a fundamental head start over a large portion of the children in public schools. If you could drop the same family dynamics into the household of every public school student, you'd be amazed by the shift in test scores, grades, etc.

All this means is that being an involved parent is important, and that effect carries over to public and private school kids also. There aren't a lot of shitty parents out there who suddenly decide that they want to invest time in home schooling their kids, but there are a ton of them who allow their kids to flounder through public schools until they're legally able to drop out without ever having a meaningful conversation about education. What you're left with is selection bias for this type of empirical comparison. You want to get closer to showing causation? Control for all of the socioeconomic advantages that home schooled kids have over a great deal of public school students. You'll find that schools do well teaching kids who are ready to learn, especially in science and math.

Anyway, I don't have anything against people who want to home school their kids or have a parent stay home with them instead of sending them to daycare; that's a choice every family can make for itself. What bugs me is when people act like their way of doing things is obviously superior and use propoganda to disseminate their ill-founded dogmas. There are plenty of observable advantages to both daycare and regular schooling but that doesn't mean that home school isn't right for certain families, just as the success of some home schooled kids doesn't mean that all kids would be better off being taught at home.

This was a random summary graphic I found with about 30 seconds of searching. Main academic point is homeschooled kids test around the 87th percentile (which has been a consistent result for several generations), & it touches on some of the other family/social benefits.

Obviously engaged & present parents are the key driver of this, that's literally the whole foundation of my original point that you were laughing at, so glad you came around, I guess.

BTW, on the whole "socioeconomic" thing, homeschool families are statistically lower income than non-homeschoolers, so if you want to "control" for that, the advantage will only grow. If you think in your situation, your kids are better off spending less time with you, I won't claim differently.

 

[HCFord1]

This was a random summary graphic I found with about 30 seconds of searching. Main academic point is homeschooled kids test around the 87th percentile (which has been a consistent result for several generations), & it touches on some of the other family/social benefits.

Obviously engaged & present parents are the key driver of this, that's literally the whole foundation of my original point that you were laughing at, so glad you came around, I guess.

BTW, on the whole "socioeconomic" thing, homeschool families are statistically lower income than non-homeschoolers, so if you want to "control" for that, the advantage will only grow. If you think in your situation, your kids are better off spending less time with you, I won't claim differently.

Except that 87th percentile stat is bullshit… Do you actually believe that the average home schooled kid scores in the 87th percentile in standardized testing? I’d think someone with such high aptitude would be able to scrutinize that study a little bit better and easily identify the textbook sample bias. I mean, if home schooled kids are in the 87th percentile then how are they being out scored by private school students?

Your original point wasn’t that engaged and present parents are key, it was that having a stay at home mom and homeschooling your kids is better than daycare and traditional school. You’re just trying to reframe it now.

P.S. - “socioeconomic” does not simply mean “economic”, even though you’re completely misguided in your dismissal of economic factors playing into the results.

 

[HuskerDocCo]

hey @HuskerGarrett can we get some tee shirts with @Alcaus avatar trademark

 

[2010sarenevercomingback]

Except that 87th percentile stat is bullshit… Do you actually believe that the average home schooled kid scores in the 87th percentile in standardized testing? I’d think someone with such high aptitude would be able to scrutinize that study a little bit better and easily identify the textbook sample bias. I mean, if home schooled kids are in the 87th percentile then how are they being out scored by private school students?

Your original point wasn’t that engaged and present parents are key, it was that having a stay at home mom and homeschooling your kids is better than daycare and traditional school. You’re just trying to reframe it now.

P.S. - “socioeconomic” does not simply mean “economic”, even though you’re completely misguided in your dismissal of economic factors playing into the results.

Percentile varies by how the statistician's bias leads them to adjust the numbers. Sometimes it's higher. The invariable constant is homeschoolers are always massively ahead of public school kids on standardized tests. Often more so in less quantifiable social & health measurements.

Parents are, by definition, not "present" while their kids are at day care or public school, so yes, that is indeed a huge part of the original point.

Just like "economic" is the lion's share of "socioeconomic."

You're quibbling with secondary & ancillary details, looking to find a technical glitch to justify dismissing the larger truth. I get it, your mind's made up, and this was never a discussion, it was always just an argument. It's why I wasn't bothering with longer explanations at first, and not really interested in doing it anymore.

 

[HCFord1]

Percentile varies by how the statistician's bias leads them to adjust the numbers. Sometimes it's higher. The invariable constant is homeschoolers are always massively ahead of public school kids on standardized tests. Often more so in less quantifiable social & health measurements.

Parents are, by definition, not "present" while their kids are at day care or public school, so yes, that is indeed a huge part of the original point.

Just like "economic" is the lion's share of "socioeconomic."

You're quibbling with secondary & ancillary details, looking to find a technical glitch to justify dismissing the larger truth. I get it, your mind's made up, and this was never a discussion, it was always just an argument. It's why I wasn't bothering with longer explanations at first, and not really interested in doing it anymore.

Sure, you can keep declaring something true, but it doesn’t mean that it is. You’ll keep saying that home schooled kids are far ahead in less quantifiable metrics, while not understanding the irony in saying something like that without any evidence.

You just seem to think that a group of kids from dual parent households, with parents more likely to have advanced degrees and are clearly invested in their kids’ education should be expected to perform on par with the average public school child. You believe that any success beyond that benchmark must be due to the home schooling received, not because those kids were going to outperform the average regardless of their school situation.

I’d be very curious to hear why you think private schooled kids outperform home schooled kids in standardized testing.