Does coaching actually matter?

[Chi7397]

He's ok, but I don't think he gets anywhere near a national championship without Vince's magic.

Didn’t he play for another national championship in 2009? I mean that’s pretty near to a national championship even if they lost?

 

[Jim14510]

There was a great 10-minute conversation between Sharp and Benning last week about this. Start at around the 35-minute mark of this clip and listen to the end:

The coaching matters part was spot on in relation to what takes great athletes and turns them into great teams. Really good example of LP and Ahman. Not sure how relevant it was to Nebraska currently. I don't think there's anyone out there arguing coaching doesn't make any difference. That's the way Damon was structuring it.

The part that was very relevant was just before that about being close. If you're close repeatedly you can't expect anything to change without making changes. Don't wait for the ball to bounce your way. Make it bounce your way.

I think Frost is somewhat guilty of that and/or the changes he made clearly weren't the right changes or not enough. 2AM being the most obvious example. Like Damon said why not have packages for Smothers at least when 2AM was banged up.

 

[Jim14510]

This.

I will say in terms of coaching actual skills application. The best coaches are the ones that can teach their guys the technical skills and get them to translate those skills into a game setting, and apply/use them correctly.

Coaching goes far and away beyond that, but to me, that's the mark a great technical coach. Indy Skills/Techniques, Into Small Group settings, into Game-like scenarios, into Games.

Kind of to my point with Fitz. His greatest constraint is also his greatest advantage when it comes to this. Now granted higher academic requirements don't automatically mean you're going to have players that are football smart. Those two things don't necessarily go hand in hand. There are many people that under perform to their capabilities in school.

Generally speaking though a kid thats very coachable does better in school.

 

[Bootleg11]

This.

I will say in terms of coaching actual skills application. The best coaches are the ones that can teach their guys the technical skills and get them to translate those skills into a game setting, and apply/use them correctly.

Coaching goes far and away beyond that, but to me, that's the mark a great technical coach. Indy Skills/Techniques, Into Small Group settings, into Game-like scenarios, into Games.

And obviously I'm talking more on the HS level. Coaching collegiately your talent level is based on...you and not the community you live in.

The argument is about to come up in my small town I live in. I don't know if anybody in this town wants the current HC to be back next year. Admin's argument will be: he's only been here 2 years, and in that time he's gone 14-6. Not a terrible record. This year he went 6-4, but in the league our school plays in there are built in wins vs all but 3 or 4 teams because Garden Plain's talent is so much better.

The teams who we played where talent was equal or better? We were 1-4 vs teams with a winning record, only averaged 14 ppg and gave up 26 ppg. One of those teams is clearly more talented and a bigger class than Garden Plain. So are you a good coach if you're 6-4 but you can't beat anybody with equal talent? I would argue, no.

 

[slattimer]

And obviously I'm talking more on the HS level. Coaching collegiately your talent level is based on...you and not the community you live in.

The argument is about to come up in my small town I live in. I don't know if anybody in this town wants the current HC to be back next year. Admin's argument will be: he's only been here 2 years, and in that time he's gone 14-6. Not a terrible record. This year he went 6-4, but in the league our school plays in there are built in wins vs all but 3 or 4 teams because Garden Plain's talent is so much better.

The teams who we played where talent was equal or better? We were 1-4 vs teams with a winning record, only averaged 14 ppg and gave up 26 ppg. One of those teams is clearly more talented and a bigger class than Garden Plain. So are you a good coach if you're 6-4 but you can't beat anybody with equal talent? I would argue, no.

Yeah, they aren't beating Cheney, but the other teams, yeah, should be able to figure out how to put together some wins.

 

[Jim14510]

Yeah, they aren't beating Cheney, but the other teams, yeah, should be able to figure out how to put together some wins.

Assuming I'm reading @Bootleg11 post right does 1-3 against teams of like competition get you fired in year 2?

 

[Bootleg11]

Yeah, they aren't beating Cheney, but the other teams, yeah, should be able to figure out how to put together some wins.

Correct. I won't make a stink about it, because I was a finalist and didn't get the job. But our high school hiring him was a mistake from the beginning, and any coach in the area knew it.

 

[Bootleg11]

Assuming I'm reading @Bootleg11 post right does 1-3 against teams of like competition get you fired in year 2?

Haha! Well little different situation but maybe

 

[BIG TONE SOPRANO]

Coaching doesn’t matter at all. They should just let the players formulate teams on their own and run what they wanna run.

 

[Jim14510]

Coaching doesn’t matter at all. They should just let the players formulate teams on their own and run what they wanna run.

Lol I think this is how the conversations tend to go with these things. Of course they both matter. It's the question of how much weight to give to each one and how long before it's 100% on the coach in college because they recruit the players.

I think in Frost’s case year 4 even with the covid year it leans more to the coach than the players. One could look to how competitive they are compared to 4 years ago and some bad luck but there isn't a big enough reason (excuse) in the bag to make up for 3-7 (more than likely 3-9).

 

[BIG TONE SOPRANO]

Lol I think this is how the conversations tend to go with these things. Of course they both matter. It's the question of how much weight to give to each one and how long before it's 100% on the coach in college because they recruit the players.

I think in Frost’s case year 4 even with the covid year it leans more to the coach than the players. One could look to how competitive they are compared to 4 years ago and some bad luck but there isn't a big enough reason (excuse) in the bag to make up for 3-7 (more than likely 3-9).

Coaching and a good QB are most of it

 

[Jim14510]

Haha! Well little different situation but maybe

As a somewhat comparable situation I personally was 100% out on Johnk at Prep about the middle of last year. Liking the guy personally was probably the only thing that got me that far. I hated the offense and think they were losing to teams they absolutely should have beat.

While the results weren't significantly different the second half of last year and this year the look was way different. I still hate the offense but its settled into an identity that can work with enough of the right players. I'll be very surprised if they aren't at least in the semi finals next year.

 

[Bootleg11]

As a somewhat comparable situation I personally was 100% out on Johnk at Prep about the middle of last year. Liking the guy personally was probably the only thing that got me that far. I hated the offense and think they were losing to teams they absolutely should have beat.

While the results weren't significantly different the second half of last year and this year the look was way different. I still hate the offense but its settled into an identity that can work with enough of the right players. I'll be very surprised if they aren't at least in the semi finals next year.

The thing about our coach here is the job he came from, he got ran out of. I knew of him because I coached in the same class at his old job. He was well known for not being a very good coach. Most people think he was hired for 1 of 2 reasons (or both): 1) He's a good catholic...yeah that still matters in some pockets of our community 2) His son was a good player (graduating this year)

It is my hope that he moves on. For multiple reasons, the biggest one being that I don't want him to coach my kids in a few years.

 

[Jim14510]

The thing about our coach here is the job he came from, he got ran out of. I knew of him because I coached in the same class at his old job. He was well known for not being a very good coach. Most people think he was hired for 1 of 2 reasons (or both): 1) He's a good catholic...yeah that still matters in some pockets of our community 2) His son was a good player (graduating this year)

It is my hope that he moves on. For multiple reasons, the biggest one being that I don't want him to coach my kids in a few years.

Other than the good catholic part the rest is apples and oranges. Johnk was pretty successful at Gross. Just started falling off because Gross is about the last place anybody outside of a 6 block radius wants to go.

 

[KidsSeeGhosts]

For sure matters, but I don't know that fans or most media have a good framework for evaluating coaching decisions and scheme. We evaluate based on plays that work and plays that don't work w/ a surface level at best understanding of what's being game planned.

 

[Jim14510]

For sure matters, but I don't know that fans or most media have a good framework for evaluating coaching decisions and scheme. We evaluate based on plays that work and plays that don't work w/ a surface level at best understanding of what's being game planned.

Or if you don't have a good framework you have to trust the people that should have a better idea. Problem in this situation is most of those people are unhappy with Frost. I'd probably be more optimistic if I wasn't listening to what they are saying.

 

[Baron Winnebago]

Coaching doesn’t matter at all. They should just let the players formulate teams on their own and run what they wanna run.

Like letting them vote on a bowl game?